Re: Para-consistent logic
Posted: Mon May 12, 2014 2:04 pm
Mike, that's true, but I think everyone has been using the proof by contradiction route in this thread.
Life in 19x19. Go, Weiqi, Baduk... Thats the life.
https://lifein19x19.com/
Pippen wrote:You assumed a "largest number" and you could indeed prove that this very "largest number" is not the largest, because of the successor of it. So your "largest number" was not the largest number right from the beginning, as the proof shows. Therefore we are now open to look for another assumed largest number. What about "largest number's successor"? Obviously the "largest number's successor" wasn't covered by "largest number", so we could now think of this number to be the new "largest number" and here we go again with the proof and it goes on and on....
SmoothOper wrote:The generative approach to number theory is all well and good, but people have to understand its limitations, mainly that there is only one object and the further removed you get in notation from that one object the more difficult it becomes to discourse, quickly degenerating to let's see who can make the biggest number... Which is disallowed under the axiom of determination.
Another approach would be to state properties of the sets as a whole.
RBerenguel wrote:SmoothOper wrote:The generative approach to number theory is all well and good, but people have to understand its limitations, mainly that there is only one object and the further removed you get in notation from that one object the more difficult it becomes to discourse, quickly degenerating to let's see who can make the biggest number... Which is disallowed under the axiom of determination.
Another approach would be to state properties of the sets as a whole.
The discussion here has relatively little to do with "number theory."
Bill Spight wrote:RBerenguel wrote:SmoothOper wrote:The generative approach to number theory is all well and good, but people have to understand its limitations, mainly that there is only one object and the further removed you get in notation from that one object the more difficult it becomes to discourse, quickly degenerating to let's see who can make the biggest number... Which is disallowed under the axiom of determination.
Another approach would be to state properties of the sets as a whole.
The discussion here has relatively little to do with "number theory."
The generative approach is all well and good, but it is disallowed under the axiom of degeneration.
Pippen wrote:You assumed a "largest number" and you could indeed prove that this very "largest number" is not the largest, because of the successor of it. So your "largest number" was not the largest number right from the beginning, as the proof shows.
Therefore we are now open to look for another assumed largest number.
How does a variable work?
How can an "x" stand for one object out of a set, but at the same time cover all object of a set, so that if you prove something for x it is proven for all objects of the set?
RBerenguel wrote:
Good for Berlekamp and Wolfe that they got a sale for the book. There's a lot of knowledge and content between the "yeahs." And I can recommend many books where you may think you understood something and the rest is "yeah yeah," want a list? They obviously will make no sense for you.
Bill Spight wrote:I know I kind of went around the bush there, but I wanted to be clear that we did not identify the largest natural number, we simply talked about it as though it existed.
Pippen wrote:Bill Spight wrote:I know I kind of went around the bush there, but I wanted to be clear that we did not identify the largest natural number, we simply talked about it as though it existed.
How about that?
You prove that L cannot be the largest number, because L+1 is its successor.
I say: Fine, but L+1 is a natural number too.
whatever your proof states, it is not for all natural numbers and therefore your proof is incomplete.
Bill Spight wrote:No , I proved that L does not exist.
Pippen wrote:Bill Spight wrote:No , I proved that L does not exist.
Hmm...I think L does exist, because by assumption it was assumed to be a natural number, but it didn't have the property to have not a successor.
THAT's what you proved. So you proved that any number that can be pulled into L
Here is my line of thinking:
1. We assume a natural number L that has the property to have no successor.
2. We find through Peano 2 that any n € N has a successor n+1 € N.
3. Through mp we find that L must have a successor L+1.
4. Lines 1 and 3 contradict each other, so either one must be false (by the way I have no idea why we do not kill 3 here, maybe someone can tell which one of two contradictory statements can be erased), and we agree?!? that it's line 1, therefore: L has not the property to have no successor.
5. But this proof in 1-4 just tells us about L and not about L+1. L+1 is not covered by L (otherwise L=L+1) therefore a very formal proof would have to prove now that L+1 has not the property to have no successor and so forth.
Not Pippen wrote:4. Lines 1 and 3 contradict each other, so either one must be false (by the way I have no idea why we do not kill 3 here, maybe someone can tell which one of two contradictory statements can be erased), and we agree?!? that it's line 1, therefore: the largest natural number has not the property to have no successor.
5. But this proof in 1-4 just tells us about the largest natural number and not about the largest natural number+1. The largest natural number+1 is not covered by the largest natural number (otherwise the largest natural number=the largest natural number+1) therefore a very formal proof would have to prove now that the largest natural number+1 has not the property to have no successor and so forth.
Pippen wrote:
1. We assume a natural number L that has the property to have no successor.
Mike Novack wrote:Pippen wrote:
1. We assume a natural number L that has the property to have no successor.
Stop right there.
The "natural numbers" were defined as "things" which have certain properties. Those properties include:
Every natural number has a successor.
So if some "thing" doesn't have a successor then it can't be a natural number.