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Re: unprofessional behavior from KGS admins during/after jub
Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:42 am
by Uberdude
Joaz Banbeck wrote:lemmata wrote:...xDragon purchases some Coca Cola in the movie theater...
"...purchases..."?
I think you just undermined your own analogy. XDragon didn't pay for anything.
I don't understand this obsession with payment or the lack thereof. I try to be polite when interacting with other human beings even if they don't pay me. Maybe it's just because I'm British?
Re: unprofessional behavior from KGS admins during/after jub
Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:07 am
by Ellyster
Joaz Banbeck wrote:lemmata wrote:...xDragon purchases some Coca Cola in the movie theater...
"...purchases..."?
I think you just undermined your own analogy. XDragon didn't pay for anything.
Even if he may not pay directly (that he could be doing it by being a KGS+ or playing from android), at least he is paying indirectly with his time, since no KGS+ member would remain if there were no single normal KGS member, the opponet would be very scarse (mixed business model). And he have the potential of paying in the future.
But even in the case that he is no paying adn will not pay, just because is a free service, that definetively does not justify being rude.
Re: unprofessional behavior from KGS admins during/after jub
Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 10:22 am
by Boidhre
Uberdude wrote:I don't understand this obsession with payment or the lack thereof. I try to be polite when interacting with other human beings even if they don't pay me. Maybe it's just because I'm British?
A thousand times this, in general one should do this, in a small community like ours one
has to do this.
Re: unprofessional behavior from KGS admins during/after jub
Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 12:22 pm
by Eizero
Is being an admin really that hard? If I were an admin, I'd just have KGS minimized and only do something if someone messages me. That way I only have to take action if it's serious enough that someone wants me to intervene, otherwise it's probably not worth it. I know a lot of people who would make good admins (I wouldn't though, lol).
Re: unprofessional behavior from KGS admins during/after jub
Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 8:43 pm
by Boidhre
Eizero wrote:Is being an admin really that hard? If I were an admin, I'd just have KGS minimized and only do something if someone messages me. That way I only have to take action if it's serious enough that someone wants me to intervene, otherwise it's probably not worth it. I know a lot of people who would make good admins (I wouldn't though, lol).
Admin in general is hard because people on the internet operating under pseudonyms can be a pain in the ass to deal with. Plus a certain percentage of people will always be a pain in the ass whether it's online or not. Some people just want to watch the world burn, others just seem unable to understand what they think is ok is not necessarily what the rules think is ok, others are fine normally but are incapable of admitting their own errors and have a lot of trouble accepting requests to calm down or whatever because of this. Etc.
Of course, all the above can apply to the admins themselves too, for whatever site/service you're talking about.
Re: unprofessional behavior from KGS admins during/after jub
Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 12:13 am
by tchan001
Eizero wrote:Is being an admin really that hard? If I were an admin, I'd just have KGS minimized and only do something if someone messages me. That way I only have to take action if it's serious enough that someone wants me to intervene, otherwise it's probably not worth it. I know a lot of people who would make good admins (I wouldn't though, lol).
What happens if there is a situation where two sides have complaints about each other and both ask you to intervene on their mutually antagonistic behalf?
Re: unprofessional behavior from KGS admins during/after jub
Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:34 am
by badukJr
BigDoug wrote:Bonobo wrote:I have also disliked quite some of the examples of admin behaviour that have been posted in this forum, some were really childish … i.e. they acted like a child would that feels hurt: bash all around w/o caring whether you hit a culprit or an innocent person, and not caring about whether the reaction is appropriate. BUT this is a free service, and I assume that most admins do their work on an honorary basis. Therefore I’d also not expect the kind of mature, “professional” behaviour I’d expect in a … hotel … or a restaurant … or … from a social worker or my therapist <shrug>.
It's an interesting comment. Let's look at the analogy in a bit more detail.
Suppose that you enter a hotel and join the queue to talk to the staff at the reception desk. They greet you politely. You ask about the check-out time and they reply that it's 10 a.m. So far, all good.
However, you believe that the check-out time should be noon. The reception staff reply that it's not the hotel's policy, so you begin to list the reasons why it should be noon. When they don't agree, you point out that they're not very good reception staff and really shouldn't be working there. The check-out time at other hotels is noon, etc. A queue forms behind you as you press your point with the reception staff. When a customer in the queue asks you to wrap it up, you then argue with the customer as well as continuing to argue with the staff. After a period of time, the reception staff tell you to leave, so that they can help other people check into the hotel.
Let's suppose that a similar episode happens on a weekly or fortnightly basis for years, as you point out the flaws in the hotel for them to fix (e.g., the curtains are the wrong colour or the free wi-fi isn't fast enough or there aren't enough free peanuts at the bar). The result is almost always the same (i.e., telling the staff how to do their jobs and rarely reaching an agreement). Note that you are never a paying customer at the hotel.
Now you've walked through the entrance and ask about the check-out time yet again. What are the expectations of the front-desk staff? Are they unprofessional if they expect another unsatisfactory encounter?
This post is great, because it highlights exactly how unwell the thinking of KGS admins is. Its clear that they believe every rule put into place is there to be strictly enforced, with no exceptions. Anyone who has spent any reasonable amount of time in a hotel knows that you can quite easily request an extension on your checkout time. I've done so successfully several times at widely different locations. I'm sure if there is a huge event in town the rule tightens up a bit, but its not enforced 24/7 in an unyielding, Judge Dredd style.
Even within national judicial systems huge amounts of negotiation go on, and laws are generally not enforced in a black and white style.
This is why people generally get annoyed at KGS admins, because the experience with enforcement there is so outside of any of their daily experiences that it seems wrong. Just the fact that one of the admins takes so much time to write up some fabricated straw man argument shows the direction where everything is headed. If you guys are so burnt out doing this for free, isn't it time to step down and recruit some new blood? Its been a really long time for some of you. It is honestly best for the server.
Re: unprofessional behavior from KGS admins during/after jub
Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:58 am
by Bovdom
KGS admins are all about overbearing, they are just really bad people.
Admin: Please be aware that personal attacks are not permitted in the forum.
1. Personal Attacks
Remember the Golden Rule: do to others what you would like to be done to you. Trolling, flaming, bashing, or otherwise verbally attacking anyone is not allowed. When writing about a move that a member made, ensure all criticism is directed towards the member's move rather than the member. Also, please consider that not every member in the forums is a native English speaker as you write your post. (tchan001)
Re: unprofessional behavior from KGS admins during/after jub
Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:05 pm
by PaperTiger
Eizero wrote:Is being an admin really that hard? If I were an admin, I'd just have KGS minimized and only do something if someone messages me. That way I only have to take action if it's serious enough that someone wants me to intervene, otherwise it's probably not worth it. I know a lot of people who would make good admins (I wouldn't though, lol).
If that's all the admins did, the server would be a much less contentious and more pleasant place. Unfortunately, there are one or two senior admins who get a kick out of acting like an overbearing parent, and I'm afraid their attitude and the "us vs. them" mentality has made even some of the more pleasant people I've known on KGS to become unlikable admins.
But I haven't logged in to KGS for months, anyways. Not worth the admin unpleasantries or the decrepit software issues.
Re: unprofessional behavior from KGS admins during/after jub
Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:39 pm
by Bovdom
I am not a native english speaker too.
I didnt make any personal attack.
Your message looks like it maybe wasnt a reply to my comment.
I dont understand you, really...
Are you a KGS admin too?
Re: unprofessional behavior from KGS admins during/after jub
Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:19 pm
by daal
Bovdom wrote:I am not a native english speaker too.
I didnt make any personal attack.
Your message looks like it maybe wasnt a reply to my comment.
I dont understand you, really...
Are you a KGS admin too?
If you can toss around the word "overbearing," you should know that "(admins) are really bad people" is a personal attack, because its criticism is directed at the people and not at their actions. For better or worse L19 also has admins, and they step in when L19 rules are broken. Which you did.
Speaking of admins, this thread really is quite the admin magnet. 6 current or former KGS admins , 3 L19 admins, an ASR admin and even an admin from another forum responded. Quite the successful complaint!
Re: unprofessional behavior from KGS admins during/after jub
Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:48 pm
by tchan001
I am a L19 moderator. As you have not been on the board for long, I just wanted you to be aware of the rule against personal attack instead of giving you an official warning. I quoted the relevant rule from the
L19 rules page for your information to support why I gave you a notice.
Re: unprofessional behavior from KGS admins during/after jub
Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:16 pm
by tekesta
When Go players play badly, it's either because they are tired or because their skill is deficient. When human beings communicate with each other badly, it's either because they are tired or because their skill is deficient.
And I was hoping that playing Go for a long time would help one to improve communication skills - or at least think before speaking.
If a Go player makes a move at appears to be bad, criticism should be given only after the game is over. The opponent has his own reasons for playing such a move. Even if you know that your opponent's last move is bad and he does not, it is better to wait until the end; exquisite moves often hide in bad shape.
Similarly, if a KGS admin does something that appears to be wrong, it would be better to find out why that happened than to denounce it publicly as improper behavior. Of course the KGS admin probably behaved improperly, but he/she is given admin privileges to enforce the server rules, regardless of personal behavior. (However, rude admins can drive away potential server members, which would go against the original purpose of the server.)
Perhaps the KGS admin in question was of East Asian origin; in East Asian culture guests are not to question the behavior of the host, nor should those in an inferior social position call into question the behavior of those in superior social positions, unless there is a possibility that such behavior may, in the long term, compromise the mission of the superiors. Even then, such a situation should be handled delicately to avoid causing the superior and other involved parties any embarrassment. With this in mind, the KGS admin did not see anything wrong with the style of her response and may have thought the offended party's response to that mildly unreasonable.
Finally, I would find it easier to understand and learn from games on BadukTV only after gaining experience with baduk. Those Koreans and Chinese play at a very high level.
Re: unprofessional behavior from KGS admins during/after jub
Posted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 4:10 am
by kivi
tekesta wrote:Perhaps the KGS admin in question was of East Asian origin; in East Asian culture guests are not to question the behavior of the host, nor should those in an inferior social position call into question the behavior of those in superior social positions, unless there is a possibility that such behavior may, in the long term, compromise the mission of the superiors. Even then, such a situation should be handled delicately to avoid causing the superior and other involved parties any embarrassment. With this in mind, the KGS admin did not see anything wrong with the style of her response and may have thought the offended party's response to that mildly unreasonable.
I live in a country where you address even the CEO of the company with his first name without Mr/Ms etc., which much laid back than not only asian but also most other western countries.
I have many colleagues who are from east asia (born and raised there, moved here as an adult), and none of them has any problem with blending in to this type of local customs. They may feel weird in the beginning but people adapt.
Also admins are not hosts in general. They don't own or run the server. Of course the guy who owns/runs the server is also an admin, but he is not involved. It's more like someone having problems with the security at the shopping mall. Let's add that the security guy's are un-paid volunteers and the other guy was just looking around and hasn't bought anything yet --- wow the best analogy ever
Re: unprofessional behavior from KGS admins during/after jub
Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:26 am
by Uberdude
Another thought on this "the users don't pay so it's ok for the admins to be bad / rude / not as good as people who work in customer service industries / whatever". Firstly some users
do pay, either for KGS+ or the android client. As people can have many accounts it's not easy to identify those who do pay (for example I used to have KGS+ on my Benzene account (because of the icon
) rather than main Uberdude account). KGS+ members don't get any special permission to break rules or leniency from the admins so the idea if you would pay you would get better service doesn't hold water. An even more extreme example is the user XY0908. For those who don't know him, he's a friendly Korean gentleman from New York who sponsored a tournament for top KGS players a few years ago to the tune of thousands of dollars. He liked to chat in the main rooms, sometimes not about Go, which incurred the wrath of some admins. He got booted, and left KGS for some time, presumably because he was upset about not being able to chat as freely as he wished. Many people thought this was a shame as he was a great contributor to the KGS community, but the admin response was just because he sponsored a tournament doesn't mean he can break the rules. Whilst I can see some logic to this, the admins should remember the reason for the rules: they are not an end in themselves, they are there to make KGS a nice place. KGS was a nicer place with XY0908.