Life In 19x19

ez4u wrote:

lemmata wrote:... With Japanese byo-yomi, I just think as much as I can until the voice says "two" and then play my move---
so simple, nearly no time management required late in the game.

However, if the above isn't "time management", I don't know what is!

Hi Dave, (off-topic)

Ed,

See my screed on timing systems. Basing your reading on the byo-yomi period has nothing to do with the patterns in the use of time we observe when people are unconstrained. Whether one system involves more complex "time management" than another is not really the point. However, since thinking for the same amount of time each move is so unnatural, I would say that byo-yomi requires more time management than canadian. In fact, I did say that (on SL)!

Bantari wrote:Ok, so lets recap what I think you are after.

You phrase your recap in the form of questions which you seem to address to me. Did you expect me to answer them? I'm afraid I don't understand what you are talking about.

The only thing I'm after is to have a discussion and to hear people's opinion.

Bantari wrote:My understanding was that his reason for such option is that the game would feel more like a "club game". I don't understand that.

This is one of the things that came up in the discussion, among a few others. I've explained this point already. Was there anything specific you failed to understand?

Bantari wrote:My guess is - the option does not exist (yet?) because there was no need for it, i.e. nobody thought of it having any value, or even of it in general.

It has already been suggested that the programmers who designed the servers were likely trying to replicate the real clocks used in tournaments. I doubt they thought of the opponent's clock visibility as optional since it's not optional in the real clocks (at least not in the clocks I've seen). This is not the same as saying they thought it had no value. Yet you make no distinction between these two possibilities. I wonder why?

Bantari wrote:I think, as somebody wisely said in here, that for a new option to get implemented there first must be a clear need, or at least a good justification for it. Otherwise we will drown in options nobody needs, wants, or uses - just for a sheer joy of having options. And this is what I think we are after here - deciding if there is a need for such option.

I think you got a bit confused here. We don't have to decide anything. We are not a committee overseeing server development.

tchan001 wrote:Let's say a go server implements your idea of hiding the clock from your opponent and you are playing against someone you don't know. If you both choose to hide your clocks and if your opponent disconnects and comes back days later, are you sure you both would remember how much time is left on each other's clocks?

I see it as a game option that will need to be accepted by both players before the game begins and will affect both players equally during the game. If the players agree to use this option, they will be shown their own clocks only. They don't need to remember anything, the server will take care of it.

Hi Dave, thanks for your research -- I'll read it in depth later.
I completely agree Japanese byo-yomi is super unnatural for me; that's the main reason I prefer Canadian to it.

ez4u wrote:

lemmata wrote:... With Japanese byo-yomi, I just think as much as I can until the voice says "two" and then play my move---so simple, nearly no time management required late in the game.

Don't get me wrong, I sympathize with a lot of what you wrote. However, if the above isn't "time management", I don't know what is!

It is a time management algorithm, but it does not require me to think about the time usage and it does not require me to even look at the clock. I rely on the audio countdown for that. The only real bit of time management occurred during the 30 seconds it took to come up with the algorithm. Even when I am applying the algorithm in my games, I am doing so mindlessly and my concentration is completely on the game. There is pretty much zero brainpower expended on time management when I play in this way. I just think for the entire period minus two seconds. That and I think when my opponent is thinking. The important part here is that I think only about the moves and never about the time.

When I play using Canadian byo-yomi, I sometimes forget to look at the clock in byo-yomi and all of a sudden, it looks like I have 10 seconds to play 5 moves. To call what I am doing with Japanese byo-yomi "time management" seems very tongue-in-cheek...which it obviously is. You can call my initial 30 second investment into deciding this policy time management, but since that is a fixed cost, my investment per game will approach zero as I play more and more games.

EDIT: For those of you who don't struggle with Canadian byo-yomi, more power to you. You must have more brainpower to spare than I do.

My initial reaction to Walleye's original post was ridicule... and suspicion. I could not come up with any reason in my own mind for hiding your clock other than some attempt to game your opponent.

But the longer the thread has gone on (and the more I have thought about it) the more reasonable this idea seems. Not hiding my clock from my opponent, but rather hiding my view of my opponent's clock. Why do I need to see my opponent's clock other than to attempt to alter my play based on the information? Should I really want to alter my play based on my opponent's time, if so, why? Why shouldn't I be more interested in playing my game with minimal distractions? This morning I suddenly recalled watching Minue622 back around 2005/2006. Minue was one of my favorite players to observe but it was excruciating. M was constantly playing right around the last second or so of the time control. Of course that was half the fun for us fans! However, why would I benefit from that kind of "fun" as a player? I think I will have to try the 'sticky' solution and see how it goes.

In terms of practicality, whether such an option "should" be implemented by go servers will come down to how many people would want to use such an option. Unless the advocates of such an option plans to program their own server and gather a critical mass for their server, it's a matter of showing existing go servers why such an option would help them build up their user base. And you need numbers to back up your suggestions before any go server would take serious consideration for such a option to be added. There are always so many other areas of requested improvements competing for their attention.

I would not use such an option even if it were there because I think go is a game of perfect information and knowing how much time my opponent has left is and has always been a consideration in how to play the psychological part of the game against an opponent. For example, knowing that your opponent is in time trouble would probably lead to a more aggressive strategy of building complications rather than simplification.

ez4u wrote:Why do I need to see my opponent's clock other than to attempt to alter my play based on the information?

Pros certainly alter their play based on their opponent's time. They're trying to win and they know how to increase their chances non-trivially in those situations.

ez4u wrote:Should I really want to alter my play based on my opponent's time, if so, why?

I am going to assume that this isn't a discussion of morality but of motivation. What you should do is just do what you want. No one should think less of you for it.

ez4u wrote:Why shouldn't I be more interested in playing my game with minimal distractions?

The clock is rarely a distraction to begin with. The clock is only there if you want to look at it. I have trouble seeing my own clock, let alone my opponent's. I don't see how one can actually be distracted by this...and I am someone who often cannot sleep because I can hear the sound of blood pumping through the veins near my ear. Besides, the proponents of this idea are talking about hiding your clock from your opponent's not hiding your opponent's clock from you.

ez4u wrote:This morning I suddenly recalled watching Minue622 back around 2005/2006. Minue was one of my favorite players to observe but it was excruciating. M was constantly playing right around the last second or so of the time control. Of course that was half the fun for us fans!

Does the fact that a player is playing right around the last second make the game more or less fun? I guess I don't really understand that. Then again, I won't be surprised if I am in the minority on that issue. I find watching live games somewhat of a bore. I would rather watch/read a prepared review.

ez4u wrote:However, why would I benefit from that kind of "fun" as a player? I think I will have to try the 'sticky' solution and see how it goes.

I don't really know either. I find that I myself cannot use time-based attacks because I am too focused on the board. However, I don't really mind if someone uses such tactics against me, as long as they're not trolling. After all, 1) it's a fun challenge, and 2) I can respect the fact that the opponent is good enough to create a complication that may resolve itself in his favor.

Prima facie, I have no objections to the proposed option, even if I would never use it myself. After all, it would just be an option. However, I do feel that it's a very low priority, especially given the presence of turn-based servers. Furthermore, how often does one face a real time-based attack in non-tournament amateur settings? It just seems that the absence of a clock-hiding option would nearly be a non-issue even for those who don't want to face time-based attacks.

I suppose that what I have offered in this thread is really just a criticism based on pragmatism, since the issue is unrelated to morality. It is unlikely to be implemented and there are readily available substitute options. If the OP can get someone to implement the feature, then great for him. However, there really isn't much to discuss. You either want the feature or do not. Looking back at the OP's first post, it seems to me that he was just looking for something like a poll. Perhaps he would have gotten the kind of answers he wanted if simply made a yes/no poll.

ez4u wrote:My initial reaction to Walleye's original post was ridicule... and suspicion. I could not come up with any reason in my own mind for hiding your clock other than some attempt to game your opponent.

But the longer the thread has gone on (and the more I have thought about it) the more reasonable this idea seems. Not hiding my clock from my opponent, but rather hiding my view of my opponent's clock. Why do I need to see my opponent's clock other than to attempt to alter my play based on the information? Should I really want to alter my play based on my opponent's time, if so, why? Why shouldn't I be more interested in playing my game with minimal distractions? This morning I suddenly recalled watching Minue622 back around 2005/2006. Minue was one of my favorite players to observe but it was excruciating. M was constantly playing right around the last second or so of the time control. Of course that was half the fun for us fans! However, why would I benefit from that kind of "fun" as a player? I think I will have to try the 'sticky' solution and see how it goes.

I sometimes check my opponent's time and compare with mine to see if I am not budgeting my main time properly. Usually happens in tournaments with significant main time, like 1-2 hours. If I have 30 mins more than my opponent then it is easier to spend 10 mins on a critical move. In the opposite situation I realize I should focus better and use my time more efficiently.

kivi wrote:

ez4u wrote:My initial reaction to Walleye's original post was ridicule... and suspicion. I could not come up with any reason in my own mind for hiding your clock other than some attempt to game your opponent.

But the longer the thread has gone on (and the more I have thought about it) the more reasonable this idea seems. Not hiding my clock from my opponent, but rather hiding my view of my opponent's clock. Why do I need to see my opponent's clock other than to attempt to alter my play based on the information? Should I really want to alter my play based on my opponent's time, if so, why? Why shouldn't I be more interested in playing my game with minimal distractions? This morning I suddenly recalled watching Minue622 back around 2005/2006. Minue was one of my favorite players to observe but it was excruciating. M was constantly playing right around the last second or so of the time control. Of course that was half the fun for us fans! However, why would I benefit from that kind of "fun" as a player? I think I will have to try the 'sticky' solution and see how it goes.

I sometimes check my opponent's time and compare with mine to see if I am not budgeting my main time properly. Usually happens in tournaments with significant main time, like 1-2 hours. If I have 30 mins more than my opponent then it is easier to spend 10 mins on a critical move. In the opposite situation I realize I should focus better and use my time more efficiently.

I have done the same thing. However, now I ask myself, "Why?" That is, why should I use someone else as a standard for comparison? This might make sense if I am playing someone that I know well. Based on past experience, the fact that I am now behind 30 minutes on the clock may tell me something significant because I know that we use similar amounts of time in late-middle-game fighting. However, the likelihood that the same 30-minute gap will provide helpful information when playing a random opponent on a server is, well..., random (!), isn't it? It would seem much better to base my use of time on the way I have played in the past rather than some imagined future pattern of play by my opponent. In that sense the information on how much time my opponent has used or has left seems more like a nagging temptation to misinterpretation and misuse than a potential goldmine of tactical advantage.

walleye wrote:I see it as a game option that will need to be accepted by both players before the game begins and will affect both players equally during the game. If the players agree to use this option, they will be shown their own clocks only.

lemmata wrote: Besides, the proponents of this idea are talking about hiding your clock from your opponent's not hiding your opponent's clock from you.

lemmata wrote:Prima facie, I have no objections to the proposed option, even if I would never use it myself. After all, it would just be an option. However, I do feel that it's a very low priority...

It is not at the top of the list of options I'd like to see implemented, but let me draw your attention to the fact that this option can have a not insignificant effect on how people actually play the game, unlike some eye candy options like board colour.

lemmata wrote:there are readily available substitute options.

The substitutes suggested would not really work for me. I don't think there is a real substitute.

lemmata wrote:However, there really isn't much to discuss. You either want the feature or do not.

Well, people can change their mind.

walleye wrote:

Yes, I know that you are saying that the implementation would require that players agree to the option before the game. However, the reason you claim to desire this option is so that your opponent is less likely to beat you with time-based tactics. If it's about hiding something shown on my own screen, then I can always use a sticky.

walleye wrote:It is not at the top of the list of options I'd like to see implemented, but let me draw your attention to the fact that this option can have a not insignificant effect on how people actually play the game, unlike some eye candy options like board colour.

That is perhaps true, although my opponent's time does not inform my own play and you claim that it does not inform yours. Part of why I see this exercise as being strange is because this option is really about controlling how others play, which I am not really interested in doing. This is doubly so if the game is casual. In fact, caring enough to try and shape your opponent's play style seems to be anything but casual.

walleye wrote:The substitutes suggested would not really work for me. I don't think there is a real substitute.

Well, people can change their mind.

Fair points.

If it is really just for purpose of building a casual clubby atmosphere, why would you want to hide something from each other in the first place? Hiding something from someone usually implies a distrust in the other person.