77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Post Reply
robinz
Lives in gote
Posts: 414
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:40 am
Rank: KGS 9k
GD Posts: 0
KGS: robinz
Location: Durham, UK
Has thanked: 95 times
Been thanked: 15 times

Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Post by robinz »

No worries - glad to see you're still with us :)
Top
User avatar
DIV
Dies with sente
Posts: 82
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:35 pm
Rank: KGS 12k
GD Posts: 0
KGS: DIVINATION
Has thanked: 3 times
Contact:
Contact DIV

Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Post by DIV »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm45 robinz vs DIV - Move 45; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O . . O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Top
User avatar
topazg
Tengen
Posts: 4511
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:08 am
Rank: Nebulous
GD Posts: 918
KGS: topazg
Location: Chatteris, UK
Has thanked: 1579 times
Been thanked: 650 times
Contact:
Contact topazg

Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Post by topazg »

This is one of those fundamental principle thingies for me, that Kage has drilled in again and again. There is no choice here but to cut:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm45 robinz vs DIV - Move 45; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X 1 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O 2 3 O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 4 6 . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
As anything like this is just fabulous for White, guaranteeing him a huge territory, Black must block:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm45 robinz vs DIV - Move 45; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . 4 . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O 1 5 O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Something like this perhaps, in the hope that compensation at the bottom can be looked for to make up for the difficulties Black will face on the left?

Where did it go wrong? Move 43 had to be a jump out:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm43 robinz vs DIV - Move 43; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Now Black has good chances of harrassing White's corner, and White cannot take the bottom edge as a large territory. Preventing F3 from being cut off is enormous. C6 is still going to come under a lot of pressure, but at least Black has a good fight going, and the ability to neutralise any White potential at the bottom.
Top
robinz
Lives in gote
Posts: 414
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:40 am
Rank: KGS 9k
GD Posts: 0
KGS: robinz
Location: Durham, UK
Has thanked: 95 times
Been thanked: 15 times

Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Post by robinz »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm46 robinz vs DIV - Move 46; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O 1 . O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
So, back to this game after a bit of a break, so I'm glad he hasn't given me much to think about - cutting is the name of the game here, with building a wall a nice bonus. There's no way he can connect his stones - if he does play G4, then I even have a pleasant choice of which cut/atari to play :) My guess is that he'll abandon F3 to its fate (it still has a fair amount of aji that I may need to worry about later) and try to make life on the outside - but he won't find it easy, and I should at least make some territory while attacking it.
Top
User avatar
DIV
Dies with sente
Posts: 82
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:35 pm
Rank: KGS 12k
GD Posts: 0
KGS: DIVINATION
Has thanked: 3 times
Contact:
Contact DIV

Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Post by DIV »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm47 robinz vs DIV - Move 47; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O 1 O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Trigger:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm48 robinz vs DIV - Move 48; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 1 . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
name of the game here is gains. there are potential cuts, there are potential move for me toward side and center either way, I am confident that I can play against him to get life for this group and maybe drag it across the center. hopefully though I can take some territory in the low. we'll see.
Top
User avatar
Laman
Lives in gote
Posts: 655
Joined: Thu May 06, 2010 10:24 pm
Rank: 1d KGS
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Laman
Location: Czechia
Has thanked: 29 times
Been thanked: 41 times
Contact:
Contact Laman

Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Post by Laman »

DIV: trigger?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm48 robinz vs DIV - Move 48; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 1 . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
not for the players:
otherwise, for last moves, w C4 was surely good and black would do better by answering with a jump F5 as topazg said. now the local situation is quite troublesome for black
Spilling gasoline feels good.

I might be wrong, but probably not.
Top
robinz
Lives in gote
Posts: 414
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:40 am
Rank: KGS 9k
GD Posts: 0
KGS: robinz
Location: Durham, UK
Has thanked: 95 times
Been thanked: 15 times

Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Post by robinz »

DIV - have you missed a move on your trigger? Your 48 is indeed the move I'm going to make, but you need to tell me how you plan to respond to it, so I can think about my next move :) (I guess this is Laman's point too - and good to see some more dan players are interested in this game :D )

For what it's worth, here's a trigger of my own:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm48 robinz vs DIV - Move 48; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X 1 . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
And some brief thoughts, not for my opponent:
Well, I think I have to atari on this side - playing G5 instead would let him separate my two groups on the bottom from each other, and give him plenty of ways to try to make life either on the bottom or above - in either case making my C4 group look heavy and vulnerable. This way, while I end in gote, I definitively take care of the lower side, and his upper group is still floating. Depending on his move, I can choose between attacking it or returning to the right-hand side to try to strengthen my R7 group at the expense of his lower-right group, which could be very important as black can easily run towards this area.

Note that I can't play move 50 at F2, which was my original intention - black then plays H3, and after I capture he can take my H4 stone in a ladder, when my groups get split and his quite strong. But the move I chose still ensures the capture of the F3 stone while defending against this threat.

It's funny, in a way, that the main point of my early play in this fight was to try to get influence towards the centre, possibly at the expense of corner territory, while it's turned out that I get quite a large chunk of territory and black gets an outside group :lol: But it seems a decent exchange for me - I now really have a lot of territory on that lower side, while black's outside group is by no means strong. I'm sure I can't kill it outright, but it's going to be running for some time to come, and I may be able to make some more territory while he does so. (Note that if he runs far to the north, I may have to worry slightly about the safety of the group containing my wall there - but for the moment it's fine; the space around B12 should be good for at least one eye, and if I have to I can always play at E17 to guarantee another one.

Finally, my opponent won't necessarily take the trigger - he can try to cause problems by playing something like G2 or H3 next instead. But it doesn't look like these will cause me any real headaches. Perhaps he'll start to do something with the E5 group already. To be honest, I don't really understand his last couple of moves, so it's hard for me to predict...
Top
User avatar
DIV
Dies with sente
Posts: 82
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:35 pm
Rank: KGS 12k
GD Posts: 0
KGS: DIVINATION
Has thanked: 3 times
Contact:
Contact DIV

Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Post by DIV »

haha, sorry for the botched trigger. I will accept your trigger.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 robinz vs DIV - Move 51; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Building some influence outward here, but no go on the bottom. I will try to contain his potential territory on the bottom and push out toward the stone at c10. Like I said his play style (and i assume I am actually doing this anyway) makes everything seem like overplay to me. But I am enjoying this game.
Top
robinz
Lives in gote
Posts: 414
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:40 am
Rank: KGS 9k
GD Posts: 0
KGS: robinz
Location: Durham, UK
Has thanked: 95 times
Been thanked: 15 times

Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Post by robinz »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm52 robinz vs DIV - Move 52; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . 1 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Well, that's a slightly surprising move from my point of view. It just makes black's group heavier, without yet giving it any eyeshape. And, while I had to do a bit of reading to be sure of this, it's not even sente - if black cuts at H3 I can pull out the H4 stone and still win any capturing race that he sets up against the G2/3 stones.

So, I think I can play essentially wherever I want. But this is where I often mess up, as there's such a wide choice. I'm not going to say a lot about this move, therefore, but it feels that, while it may well not be the very best move on the board, it can't be too bad. (After all, what does the proverb say about the one-point jump? ;-)) It seems to simultaneously expand by bottom territory and limit the running room of black's groups on both the left and right. I just like the look of it. It does allow black some tactical options involving the peep at K4, but I don't see anything to fear there, given my stable stones in close proximity.

I've no idea what Black will do now. Other than trying some funny business involving ataris and peeps in the region I just played in (none of which, as I said, seems to work too well for black), the most likely option I think is that he'll make some kind of extension northwards from the weak group on the left. I'm not then sure of what the best way to play will be, but I have stones all around, many of them strong(ish), and I'm not seeing any eyes for him yet.
Top
User avatar
DIV
Dies with sente
Posts: 82
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:35 pm
Rank: KGS 12k
GD Posts: 0
KGS: DIVINATION
Has thanked: 3 times
Contact:
Contact DIV

Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Post by DIV »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm53 robinz vs DIV - Move 53; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I have been slacking on my commentary and thoughts lately. So I figure I'll do some real comments now.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm52 robinz vs DIV - Move 52; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . c . . . . . . |
$$ | . g . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . h . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . e . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . f . . X X X X . . O . . d . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O b , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Now I'm not really sure what to go with or if these are even the biggest or most urgent points, I kinda like the look of h, but I'd like it even more with a in place, I think that I'll go h just to pressure him toward the center and then it's kind of a miai thing for edge or movement into the center. Hopefully I am not playing another overplay.
Top
User avatar
gaius
Lives in gote
Posts: 476
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:55 am
Rank: Dutch 2 dan
GD Posts: 56
KGS: hopjesvla
Has thanked: 193 times
Been thanked: 83 times

Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Post by gaius »

DIV wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm53 robinz vs DIV - Move 53; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
(...)Hopefully I am not playing another overplay.
This is not an overplay, it's an empty move. The black wall is already reasonably strong, and the center is not that big. The last move doesn't add territory, and the influence it gives is kind of vague. Remember the list of three:
1. Do I have any weak groups? => defend!
2. Does my opponent have attackable groups? => attack!
3. Otherwise, play the (territorially) biggest point.

I indicated some alternatives. 'a' makes life (EDIT: unnecessary, white cannot kill - silly me! 'e' IS good though, because it's double sente). 'b' defends while taking points. 'c' threatens white's group, aiming at a running battle and potential double attack on the two white stones at the top. My tesuji sense tells me that there is probably something at the bottom, but I'm not sure, and that requires careful reading. Perhaps 'd' could be an interesting start?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm53 robinz vs DIV - Move 53; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . a . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . e O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . c . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . O d . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Last edited by gaius on Mon Nov 15, 2010 8:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
My name is Gijs, from Utrecht, NL.

When in doubt, play the most aggressive move
Top
User avatar
topazg
Tengen
Posts: 4511
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:08 am
Rank: Nebulous
GD Posts: 918
KGS: topazg
Location: Chatteris, UK
Has thanked: 1579 times
Been thanked: 650 times
Contact:
Contact topazg

Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Post by topazg »

@Gaius
"a" kills?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm54 robinz vs DIV - Move 53; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . 1 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 3 X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | 2 . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | 6 X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 5 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm54 robinz vs DIV - Move 53; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . 1 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 4 X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | 2 . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | 6 X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 5 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm54 robinz vs DIV - Move 53; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . 1 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 4 X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | 2 . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | 5 X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 6 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
What am I missing?
EDIT:
Brainfart, you didn't mean "a" kills, but "a" stops Black from dying ... :w54: at :b55: ...
Top
robinz
Lives in gote
Posts: 414
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:40 am
Rank: KGS 9k
GD Posts: 0
KGS: robinz
Location: Durham, UK
Has thanked: 95 times
Been thanked: 15 times

Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Post by robinz »

Nice to see the dan players having a good discussion about this game - keep it up guys :D
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm54 robinz vs DIV - Move 54; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Well, there we have it - black decides to give himself some eyespace, as I indeed predicted. Perhaps I should have played in that region myself to stop it - but I was slightly worried about black's possibilities of expansion to the east instead, perhaps linking up his two groups and troubling mine on the bottom. Anyway, too late to change it now.

A quick count of the position - black still has the 60-70 odd points that he did last time, but I now have all of that bottom as pretty solid territory, which I make to be about 40 points. I have komi as well, but still need roughly 20 more than black in the central region and left side in order to win the game. Looking at the board as it stands now, how can I do that?

The obvious answer is to do something aggressive against the recently-created black E5 group - black's last several moves have indicated that he's going to stake everything on it living. Certainly, if I can kill it, I have at least 50 or so points in that area, and become a big favourite for plenty more in the central region - if the miracle happens, black would pretty much have to resign :lol:

OK, I don't seriously expect that to happen, but it indicates that what I must do in the next few moves is attack this group for all it's worth. While a kill won't be easy, it's still not abundantly clear precisely where black's eyes are - there is no side of the board to help him with my C10 stone and C4 wall (both pretty much invulnerable to counterattack for the forseeable future, at any rate) bearing down on him, and it's going to take several more plays from him to make 2 in the F7 region. And while I put the pressure on, the theory is that I should be able to make some definite territory elsewhere in that still wide open central region - hopefully 10-20 points or so, while black is busy securing for himself only 5 or so by living.

But I've not played enough games to know exactly how to carry out the attack in practice. I've considered several moves here, having stared at the position for quite some time, and I've come down in favour of this ogeima. It both makes more territory for me (the ogeima isn't the most solidly connected of moves, of that I am aware, but I looked at a few variations and don't see how black can comfortably cut), and threatens to put stones in the area where black will want them for making eyes. There were two other options I seriously considered. One was J10, or thereabouts, with similar intentions to the move I've chosen, but coming from a different direction. However, compared to my choice, it seems thinner, and less directly attacking (although admittedly mapping out more potential territory). The other was a move like C8 or D8, which would interfere with black's hopes for an eye on the side, as well as giving me more territory on the left. There may also be threats to cut off the C6 stone in the offing from this line of play. But I think such plays can wait, given that my position on that side is fairly strong as it is - black can't immediately attack there, or get an eye. I think attacking from the centre is the way forward for now.
Top
User avatar
gaius
Lives in gote
Posts: 476
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:55 am
Rank: Dutch 2 dan
GD Posts: 56
KGS: hopjesvla
Has thanked: 193 times
Been thanked: 83 times

Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Post by gaius »

@topazg:
D'oh! The brain fart is all mine. Silly misread, sorry for wasting your time! This one doesn't work:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm54 robinz vs DIV - Move 54; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . 2 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 3 X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | 1 . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |[/go]
My name is Gijs, from Utrecht, NL.

When in doubt, play the most aggressive move
Top
User avatar
Joaz Banbeck
Judan
Posts: 5546
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 11:30 am
Rank: 1D AGA
GD Posts: 1512
Kaya handle: Test
Location: Banbeck Vale
Has thanked: 1080 times
Been thanked: 1434 times

Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Both players have lost their sense of direction. As noted by another commentator, black latest was an empty move. Black's central group is not nearly as easy to kill as either of them suspects.
But black's right lower corner cound be in serious trouble if white simply plays R2.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X 5 . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O . , . . . . . X . 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . O . . O . . X 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O 1 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Even if black lives, white benefits by getting eye space around T5/T6 for his otherwise weak group.
Also, in the opposite corner, isn't B13 dual sente? It appears in the Topazg/Gaius discussions above that black is one move from dying. That makes B13 sente for white.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . 3 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |[/go]
It looks like sente for black, as the following hane would be most unpleasant.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
Top
Post Reply

Return to “1-on-1 Malkovich games”