Page 6 of 10

Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)

Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:40 pm
by Redundant
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O X . . . . O O X O . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X X . X O . . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O O X . O X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O X X O . . . O . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X O X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Hane at the head of two stones is natural. I'm aiming at this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O X . 6 3 4 O O X O . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X X . X O 2 . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , . O X 7 . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O O X . O X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O X X O . . . 1 5 . . X . . |
$$ | . O X O X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)

Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 4:14 pm
by emerus
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O X . . . . O O X O . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X X . X O 2 . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O O X . O B . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O X X O . . . 1 . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X O X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Thanks to Loki for telling me about SGF-full tags ^^. Now come and comment on my game........!!!!

Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)

Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 4:16 pm
by Redundant
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O X . . W . O O X O . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X X . X O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O O X . O X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O X X O . . . O . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X O X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)

Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 4:20 pm
by emerus
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O X . . 3 4 O O X O . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X X . X O 2 . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O O X . O B . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O X X O . . . 1 . . . X . . |
$$ | . O X O X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Hey, I think you can open my hide tags up until your kakari in the top right if you want to.

Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)

Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 4:30 pm
by Redundant
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O X . . O X O O X O . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X X . X O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O O X . O X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O X X O . . . O O . . X . . |
$$ | . O X O X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I'm just gonna salvage some influence from this mess.
I'll check to see if mine are safe for you to read. Basically, you can look up until you play the ladder breaker.

Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)

Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 4:34 pm
by emerus
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O X . . O X O O X O . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X X . X O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O O X . O X . B . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O X X O . . . O O . . X . . |
$$ | . O X O X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O X . . O X O O X O . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X X . X O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O O X . O X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O X X O . . . O O . . X . . |
$$ | . O X O X O . O . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . c . . . X . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
These are my expectations.

Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)

Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 4:48 pm
by Redundant
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O X . . O X O O X O . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X X W X O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O O X . O X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O X X O . . . O O . . X . . |
$$ | . O X O X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Let's see how he prevents this variation from happening ...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . 4 . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O X 3 2 O X O O X O . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X X 1 X O X . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , 5 O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O O X . O X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O X X O . . . O O . . X . . |
$$ | . O X O X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)

Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 4:52 pm
by emerus
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm1 Prisoner Count: B-2 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . 3 . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O X 2 1 . X O O X O . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X X W X . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O O X . O X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O X X O . . . O O . . X . . |
$$ | . O X O X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Triggers for obvious ataris plz...

Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)

Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 6:30 pm
by Redundant
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm1 Prisoner Count: B-2 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O X O X . X O O X O . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X X O X . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , O O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O O X . O X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O X X O . . . O O . . X . . |
$$ | . O X O X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I don't like doing triggers. They precondition you to play a certain way.

Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)

Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:56 pm
by emerus
I can't believe that he's playing so many gote endgame sized moves. o.O
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm1 Prisoner Count: B-2 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O X O X . X O O X O . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X X O X . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , O O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O O X . O X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O X X O . . . O O . . X . . |
$$ | . O X O X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)

Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 6:51 am
by Marcus
emerus wrote:
I can't believe that he's playing so many gote endgame sized moves. o.O
To emerus:
Have you tried counting the board at all? I'm curious to know what you think of the current board position. Given your statement above, where do you think White is going wrong with his latest handful of moves? What would you do different?
To observers:
While I'm not so keen on the invasion White played, I think the salvage wasn't all that bad, giving influence and threatening to cut off 14 or so more points up top. That's not small at all, if White swallows those stones.

Blacks comments seem to me to give the impression that he's not quite aware of how BIG White's upper left really is.

Don't get me wrong, I think that White has some work to do ... I just think Black is underestimating White's profit so far.

Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)

Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:09 am
by emerus
Marcus wrote:
To emerus:
Have you tried counting the board at all? I'm curious to know what you think of the current board position. Given your statement above, where do you think White is going wrong with his latest handful of moves? What would you do different?
Woops, idk how you quote things without seeing both hidden comments. My bad.... Red should be able to read that since I took an accidental glance.
No I don't really count. I'm not even sure the rules on captured stones yet. o.o

The board looks much better for black so I feel that I've retained my two stone advantage. White has gone terribly wrong with this invasion (although my p15 was a nasty shape mistake worth about 15 points), his entire sequence was a negative. Also his d14 move earlier was quite small for that stage in the game. If I'm a off in my judgment of a two stone game, it can't be by much and black is still ahead.

If I were to put numbers out by eyeballing I'd guess white has 40 points in the corner with a 18 point gote follow up at l19.

Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)

Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 4:13 pm
by Marcus
emerus wrote:Woops, idk how you quote things without seeing both hidden comments. My bad.... Red should be able to read that since I took an accidental glance.

Not to worry, I did not talk about future moves, just my own feel of the current position. :)

Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)

Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 4:45 pm
by Redundant
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$cm1 Prisoner Count: B-2 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O X O X . X O O X O . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X X O X . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , O O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O O X . O X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O X X O . . . O O . . X . . |
$$ | . O X O X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . X . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
My group will be fine. I'm taking this point, because him playing in this corner would make a really nice formation.

Re: 92: Emerus (4k) vs. Redundant (1k)

Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 5:28 pm
by topazg
Marcus wrote:To observers:
While I'm not so keen on the invasion White played, I think the salvage wasn't all that bad, giving influence and threatening to cut off 14 or so more points up top. That's not small at all, if White swallows those stones.

Blacks comments seem to me to give the impression that he's not quite aware of how BIG White's upper left really is.

Don't get me wrong, I think that White has some work to do ... I just think Black is underestimating White's profit so far.
I think he's underestimating White's profit too, but I also think the top right was a White disaster. None of that thickness / influence he's got is that useful, and there's still huge local aji left around the M14 cut. White's given Black a big corner, and done nothing to prevent the framework on the right. What's more, his latest invasion can be treated as gote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-2 W-1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . X . . . O . O . . . . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X X X O O O X O X . X O O X O . |
$$ | . O O O O X O . X X O X . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X . , O O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O X O O X . O X . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O X O X X O . . . O O . . X . . |
$$ | . O X O X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 X 3 . . . . , . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . W 2 . . . . . X . O . . O O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This looks hard for White to me.