So black wants to play street fighter with violent ken it seems to me .
Moving on to the game, i´m pretty sure you guys know about the weakness we have at A right? So i believe we should protect it first instead of going all out on pincers, it would only make black run to the center which is precisely what they want.
This is the variation i ´m currently thinking. B and C are black other moves instead of getting the final corner.
I hope you guys can post soon so we can discuss this better.
Re: Teamovich 2
Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:55 am
by robinz
WIC:
Rafa is right about the weakness at "a", as far as I can tell (if black plays there our group becomes a floating eyeless baseless lump* ), which confirms my suspicion that we should be settling first. But can we do it in sente? Rafa's sequence clearly doesn't do that. But perhaps it's good enough, as our group is then definitely alive (as far as my mediocre reading can tell), and we have kind-of-miai of attacking black's C12 stone and C17 group. Not that the latter looks too easy to attack profitably, now I think about it, which brings me on to my next point:
Do we need Rafa's 12/13 exchange? It looks rather aji-keshi-ish to me. On the one hand, it does expand our eyespace, but I'm not sure it's necessary to live. And unless it is, I really don't want to play it, as it just forces black to strengthen his group - on the present board it looks possibly vulnerable (I'm not sure we can do much to attack it sensibly yet, but given the right conditions...), whereas on Rafa's diagram it looks fairly thick and indestructible.
I think we can live, or at least make our group healthy enough to survive, by playing B14 straightaway - or C14 preferably (why play on the second line unless forced to?). Probably there are better moves too, but I'm not seeing them if so. The only other one to occur to me is C13, which has the advantage of being sente, but the major disadvantage of forcing black to strengthen his stone. I will regret this if black ends up with a strong position in the lower left.
Whatever we do, I'm fairly convinced it has to be in the upper left.
Anyway, no suggestion yet, but some more thoughts. As I've already said though, I'm way out of my depth at the moment and these are probably total rubbish
*EDIT: actually, now I look again, I'm not convinced it's such a worry. The above was written assume we'd respond at B16, but if we simply cut it off at B14, can't we capture it before it causes damage? If not, can you (either Rafa or Mnemonic) show some sequences to demonstrate why this doesn't work?
Re: Teamovich 2
Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:37 am
by Mnemonic
WIC
Ok, I got some time so I will try to analyze the situation (could be a lengthy post)
First of I don' like the Idea of settling. It feels a bit like ddk angst. All we do by settling is giving black tons of influence in sente while boxing us in. Also, we've been punched in the face repeatedly now and I'm tired of taking this cr*p! Now there are roughly 3 ways we can handle this: counter pincer, leaning on one group with the intent of attacking the other one and settling in sente to attack one group afterwards (making a fist bla bla) I would want to rule out settling for settlings sake and I would only really consider a defensive move if the cutting aji is really that grotesque.
How strong is our group
I believe this is a really important question that determines to a large extent what we can play next. Robinz especially seems to be worried Now if you recall my pincer sequence our corner group was weak but manageable (otherwise it wouldn't be joseki), and even there the first instinct shouldn't be setting whatever the cost. Now we've added a stone but all it does is set up a monkey jump, right? WRONG! It guaranties access to the corner and thereby at least one eye; because of the extra liberty it also protects against Rafa's (a) This is the only point black can attack and something like this could be the continuation.
The above sequence is ok for us, but with the pincer stone it looks grim for those two center stones (note, corner is unconditionally alive). Looks like we have to play something that protects that cut, hopefully in sente without strengthening black
Damn, I have to remember that black move next time I play. It's really hard to come up with a satisfactory response because black has the cut AND the slide at (c) A: Is sente but does not protect the cut B: Protects against the cut and the slide, but is exactly the kind of move I do NOT want to play C: Protects against both but is even more passive than (b) D: The only move I could come up with that looks promising, playing out the normal joseki gives us a good result and protects against the cut's, but this situation is complicated and I haven't read out everything yet.
After looking at the situation I think we need to protect if we don't want to get sealed in (which would be very very bad with black tengen), but we can tenuki without getting killed.
Re: Teamovich 2
Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:21 pm
by robinz
@Mnemonic (WIC):
I'm not sure why you think I just want to settle "for settling's sake". But since you say that "All we do by settling is giving black tons of influence in sente while boxing us in", let me make absolutely clear that I agree that doing that (letting black seal us in, and in sente too) would be absolutely hideous. But I don't think we're in danger of being sealed in at this stage, thanks to the D14 stone. You yourself have given a prime example of exactly what we need to avoid in your first diagram, which you for some reason call "OK for us" (but then do say we need to avoid). If that happens the game is as good as over - we're alive, but with second line territory and what, 8 points in the corner if we get all the good endgame follow-ups in, while being totally 100% sealed in. (And black with thickness beyond their wildest dreams.) All of the black team would be absolutely laughing if we allowed that to happen.
We may well have better moves in the sequence you show, but I don't see anything obvious. Thus, this adds to my conviction that something needs to be done in this corner.
And, I nearly forgot to say, by settling here we ought to be able to create good follow-ups against either black's lone C12 stone or his upper-left group - "making a fist", as you say.
I feel one of us needs to make a suggestion soon. I was going to make one of my own, but I don't see a move I like yet I was about to suggest C13, which fixes a lot of our problems and in sente. You haven't explained precisely why you dislike it so much, but I'm also not keen for several reasons - it strengthens black's stone, making it almost certain that they get a strong position on the left side which will probably work rather well with their tengen. Further, it leaves our group looking a little overconcentrated to my eye (but this could be my DDK tendencies showing themselves up). Especially as it doesn't totally fix all the aji.
Your suggestion of D12 also looks interesting, but my reading isn't up to figuring out how the play would then go. It's open to the same objection as C13 is - it's attaching to a weak stone, and thereby forcing it to get stronger.
I'm probably going to end up suggesting one of C13 and D12, unless someone comes up with something much better. (Although if someone does, they should suggest it themselves, of course - so unless I get some inspiration myself I'll probably still end up nominating one of these moves )
Re: Teamovich 2
Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 2:54 pm
by Mnemonic
WIC (answering robinz)
I'm not sure why you think I just want to settle "for settling's sake"
Sorry, but your first post seemed to focus a lot on settling. I too think that we have to strengthen our group, but it seemed like it was your first choice whereas it is my last
You yourself have given a prime example of exactly what we need to avoid in your first diagram, which you for some reason call "OK for us" (but then do say we need to avoid)
The example is somewhat joseki (at least it's the one played out in the BB game; of course they had already pincered the black group) That's why I think the black move is so hard to answer. If black cut's we end up with the same sequence that would have followed my move but without the benefit of a pincer already in place. Although it seems so unreasonable we could consider tenuki because our corner is safe and if we don't find a good local continuation it might even be better. (on the flip side: Black would be laughing there ass of )
I was about to suggest C13, which fixes a lot of our problems and in sente. You haven't explained precisely why you dislike it so much, but I'm also not keen for several reasons - it strengthens black's stone, making it almost certain that they get a strong position on the left side which will probably work rather well with their tengen. Further, it leaves our group looking a little overconcentrated to my eye (but this could be my DDK tendencies showing themselves up). Especially as it doesn't totally fix all the aji.
It should fix most aji and I think someone should nominate it since it is the most reasonable local move although it hurts to play it. As an example of why I don’t like it:
protects against the cut's and we have some stones on the outside. If we atari from underneath we either end up with a lot of cutting points or getting sealed in again.
Ko!?! I don't think we can afford it now Looks like my move sucks. And I don't see anything else that works so we will be forced to play C13. So either C13 is's so bad a move as I think, our captain though we should tenuki (I don't think so), there is some awesome tesuji that we don't see or we made a mistake some where
WIC (outside-the-box thinking)
Fact: after the pincer the cut becomes very sever and defending it the normal way does not feel right.
This looks like the probable continuation. We have about 8 points and black about 5. We are in the center but don't really have any direction in which to develop whereas black does (at (a), and it is semi sente) Black has a weak group that we could pressure, but with the tengen stone we won't get very far. We have sente.
All in all it doesn't seem so bad with 6-8 being my continuation.
hypothesis 2: because our corner is alive we can play on the outside in a location of our choice and get a favorable fight after the cut.
[go]$$Bcm1 Now moves around (a) seem good
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X . . . . .
$$ | . 2 O 1 X . a . .
$$ | . O X O . . . . .
$$ | . X X O . . . . .
$$ | . X O O . . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . . .
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . a . . . . . .[/go]
Re: Teamovich 2
Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:26 am
by robinz
White suggestion:
Well, it's been a long time with no discussion now - and still no formal suggestions (unless Rafa's was one - I'm not clear on this). In the interests of getting the game moving, I will go ahead and suggest the move I already suggested I would:
I've already said why I'm a bit unhappy about this, but I really don't see anything better. I do think we need to protect against black playing a next, which this does (B15 will now connect everything up underneath), and this move is the only way I can see to do it in sente. Black D12 is I think now forced, and afterwards I would suggest playing in the lower-left corner, perhaps with a 4-4. (But I'm not committed to this, and we'll get to discuss again.) The problem, of course, is that black is going to get a nice solid group on the left-hand side - which is especially bad as, rereading Marcus' comments for our past couple of moves, this was where he wanted us to be making territory On the other hand, our upper-left is now of reasonable size, with potential to expand (although there is a bit of bad aji left), and there are plenty of open areas on the board to get more - especially as we'll have sente.
I'm really not sure if this is the best move - indeed, if it is, then I feel that black has just found a really good move. But I don't see a better one, and this is certainly an option. So I'm throwing it out there.
Re: Teamovich 2
Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:20 am
by Mnemonic
Move nomination
While I think that robinz move is probably the correct one I'll try proposing D12. There are 4 possible responses by black that I can think of (Although I think they'll chose C) I've explored 3 of them in my previous post so here is the slide
$$Bcm1 Black responses
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X . . . . .
$$ | . . O . X . . . .
$$ | . . c . . . . . .
$$ | . d . O . . . . .
$$ | . . . b . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 2 . . . . .
$$ | . . . a . . . . .
[go]$$Bcm1 White is alive and out in sente
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . O . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X . . . . .
$$ | . . O . X . . . .
$$ | . 6 . . . . . . .
$$ | . 3 4 O . . . . .
$$ | . 5 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 2 . . . . .
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . .[/go]
Re: Teamovich 2
Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:14 am
by Marcus
WIC:
Good discussion here, I like it. I haven't actually decided how I would want to handle this move ... so it might take a bit of time. I'm having trouble setting aside some time to read out the possible attacks that Black has against the corner. I'm happy to see that you guys are thinking about the safety of the corner as well.
Wrote long explanation. Lost it and cannot be bothered to retype. Candidate moves a-e in order I like them nomination numbered.
Re: Teamovich 2
Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 5:21 am
by Mnemonic
bump
Re: Teamovich 2
Posted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:10 am
by lesenv
Well, if we are going to play in the upper right, i'd choose Sinks nomination.
But I don't know if it's right. White can play in the upper right, it seems slow to me, though. If he chooses to enclose the corner, we can still approach from the top (around M-N16-17).
.
), which confirms my suspicion that we should be settling first. But can we do it in sente? Rafa's sequence clearly doesn't do that. But perhaps it's good enough, as our group is then definitely alive (as far as my mediocre reading can tell), and we have kind-of-miai of attacking black's C12 stone and C17 group. Not that the latter looks too easy to attack profitably, now I think about it, which brings me on to my next point:
is the only point black can attack and something like this could be the continuation.
)
protects against the cut's and we have some stones on the outside. If we atari from underneath we either end up with a lot of cutting points or getting sealed in again.