Life In 19x19

flOvermind wrote:
Comparing with the common joseki continuation:

$$Wc Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . X . . . . X . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 4 . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . c b . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . O O O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . X X . O X O X . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

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[go]$$Wc Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . X . . . . X . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 4 . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . c b . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . O O O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . X X . O X O X . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now, would white really want to answer at 'a'? If the aim is building a big moyo, I would rather go really big scale and play 'b' (or at least 'c', too lazy to read right now). And white already has the corner, which is not only big in territory, but also gives a lot of stability that could come in useful when dealing with an invasion.

Your comparison doesn't look right, the point is white will not play the 3-3 point.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . X . . . . X . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 4 . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . b . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . O O O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . X X . O X O X . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White will not be answering 4 at a. White could make the moyo even bigger by playing for example b.

I think this is quite an interesting position. I have been waiting to see what will happen in the right center. I think there is still some urgency there. Neither Black nor White has quite settled their group yet, so whoever moves out first has the potential to seize the initiative. As a result, I think that something like below is worth more than trying to continue at the top. What do you think?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 4 . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . O O O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . X X . O X O X . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

i fugured i need to probe here first, then maybe secure the top side

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[go]$$Bcm39 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . 7 O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . O . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . O O O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . X X . O X O X . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

crosscutting doesnt look good but i will post some thoughts on the continuation when i see how he reacts

yoyoma wrote:White will not be answering 4 at a. White could make the moyo even bigger by playing for example b.

Or, white would already have an even bigger moyo, and tenuki, taking the biggest point elsewhere (which might well be taking the corner ). It's not that white gets to play for free, black gets to play in exchange, which is a pretty big territorial move.

The point of my second diagram was not that it might be a viable line of play. It's just for comparison. *If* white were to take the corner, in the continuation I'd rather have at another location. But whether I take the corner or sente doesn't really change my opinion on the moyo move

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . X . . . . X . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . 4 . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . 3 a . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . 5 . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . O O O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . X X . O X O X . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I like black here. Black got the corner, the top side is pretty solid, and the white moyo is still wide open to reduction from several directions, and c6 is far from being captured. There is a semi-weak white group on the right, which might help black in reducing the moyo. Overall, black got a *lot* of solid territory, and white doesn't have much except the moyo. Perhaps I'm underestimating the potential of the white moyo here, but to me it doesn't look big enough...

I also don't like at , because at 'a' or would be very painful. That's the whole point. I don't like the exchange, because it gives black too much solid territory

EDIT: Ninjad by stalkor, who in the meantime highlights one of the weak points in the moyo

Divide and conquer and all that. Actually, this is a seriously hard decision, and I'm not happy with either hane. The following is what I kinda expect:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm45 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . 3 5 . . . . . . . . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O 6 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . O . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . O O O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . X X . O X O X . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Thing is, my corner isn't deliriously overjoyed now. At least his group isn't either. Crosscut seems dangerous for him:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm47 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . 6 4 8 . . . . . . . . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . 5 X O 7 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . W 1 . . . . . . . . O . O . O . . |
$$ | . . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . O O O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . X X . O X O X . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I also looked at the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm45 Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . 4 2 . . . . . . . . . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . X O 6 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 3 5 . . . . . . . . O . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . O O O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . X X . O X O X . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But to be honest, I can't honestly see much of a continued threat against his group if he connects and jumps, and eventually I'll have to start thinking about my wall, so let's divide first!

Augghhh! I really really want to play as below ever since that position came on the board. Let white either make the ko for life or run with only one eye! Am I really the only one feeling this way?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Prisoners: :b100: :w100:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . X . 3 O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X 2 O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 1 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . O O O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . X X . O X O X . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Agree it's been sitting there since the beginning. But can Black make is stick when the center stones only come out to O11? Right now Black's right-side stones do not have two eyes either. I do not see how Black has clear prospects here. On the other hand, if Black jumps out again as part of reducing White's center...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X 1 |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . 3 . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . 2 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . O O O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . X X . O X O X . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White can live anytime if he gets enclosed, no? (I think that should be played first, though.)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . W . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . O O O . , . . . . X X X . . |
$$ | . X X . O X O X . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

You're right of course! I was thinking there was a ko in there but yours is right out of the L&D books.