135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)

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Loons
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Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)

Post by Loons »

A prediction, just for fun.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 No Prisoners!
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 6 8 . O . X . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . a . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . O . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . . . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . O . X O O . |
$$ | . X O O . . . 9 . X . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
While it may be possible to save those two stones (the weakness at 'a' comes into play if black connects the peep), I feel like defending top left corner comes first. Also, this seems like fuego's style to me.

*Top-top-right may be urgent compared to bottom.
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emeraldemon
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Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)

Post by emeraldemon »

This seems to merit a trigger:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . 9 O . X . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . . . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . 8 X X O O . . . , . . . O . X O O . |
$$ | . X O O 7 . . . . X . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Value: 51.1%

sequence (assuming trigger is accepted):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm59 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . 6 X . . O . 1 O . X . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . 0 8 7 X 5 3 4 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 9 2 . . O . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . . . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . O X X O O . . . , . . . O . X O O . |
$$ | . X O O X . . . . X . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I have to run now, search analysis later.
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daniel_the_smith
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Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)

Post by daniel_the_smith »

I almost want to take the trigger just to ensure that black plays :b59: there. But, I think this :w58: is potentially a couple of points better. If black still plays :b59: , I'll answer as below.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O . 9 O . X . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . 0 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . . . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . O . X O O . |
$$ | . X O O X . . . . X . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I want to play 58 like so, but then black could live in the corner:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc ( :w5: fills)
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . O . X O O . |
$$ | . X O O X 1 . . . X . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | 7 . 2 4 3 . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . 6 . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
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Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)

Post by Laman »

i might be wrong, but it seems to me that white can kill even with his 58 at F3 if he omits the connection of two stones:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Diagram 84-1
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . 5 X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . O . X O O . |
$$ | . X O O C 1 . . . X . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . 2 4 3 . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Diagram 84-2
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . W X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . O . X O O . |
$$ | . X C 2 1 O . . . X . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | a . X X O . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
then a-b is miai and white won't let black make the second eye
Spilling gasoline feels good.

I might be wrong, but probably not.
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Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)

Post by emeraldemon »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O 9 . O . X . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . . . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . O . X O O . |
$$ | . X O O X . . . . X . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Fuego doesn't really have the ability to disassociate the bottom from the top; as far as it's concerned, this is an entirely different position that has to be completely re-evaluated.

Value: 49.0%

Fuego believes that it's behind for the first time since move 13. I think it's at least partly do the diminished aji in the corner: maybe in the past black was winning that corner sometimes in playouts, but not nearly as often now. That said, I think white has done a pretty good job of handling the situation on top, except maybe Q13. I'll be very curious to see if that aji comes into play later in the game.

sequence:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm59 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . 9 . 4 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 0 6 O 3 X . . O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O 1 . O . X . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 2 X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 7 8 . O . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . . . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . O . X O O . |
$$ | . X O O X . . . . X . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
If the sequence goes this way, it looks like black may live small on the top, but without much territory in the corner or left side.
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Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)

Post by daniel_the_smith »

Gah, I should have accepted the trigger, it was a guaranteed crappy move! :evil:
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Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)

Post by daniel_the_smith »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm51 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O X . O . X . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 0 . . O . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . . . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . O . X O O . |
$$ | . X O O X . . . . X . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Well, let's just go with my plan from before. What will happen? I don't know!
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Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)

Post by emeraldemon »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O X . O . X . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . . . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . O . X O O . |
$$ | . X O O X . . . . X . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Value: 48.7%

Sequence:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O X . O . X . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . 6 4 3 X . . . . . . . 2 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 O . 9 O . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 0 . O 7 . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 8 O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . . . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . O . X O O . |
$$ | . X O O X . . . . X . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Value is dropping, and this sequence is looking kind of sketchy.
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Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)

Post by jts »

In the predicted sequence, can anyone explain to me why this is a good time to make the :b61: :w62: exchange? It seems odd to strengthen the outside before you're ready to follow though.
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Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)

Post by flOvermind »

It seems Fuego is losing.

I don't think it is actually behind on the board, but it seems to have switched into "desperate mode". At least that's the impression I get from the predicted sequence.

I'm aware that there isn't actually such a thing as a desperate mode coded into the program. But it's a common emergent behavior of monte-carlo bots, and that's IMHO their biggest (perhaps the only?) systematic weakness.
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Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)

Post by daniel_the_smith »

Q15 for $300, please. If that works then obviously I made a mistake. I think fuago is too scatterbrained.
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emeraldemon
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Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)

Post by emeraldemon »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm61 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O X . O . X . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 3 X . . . . . . . 2 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . O . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . . . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . O . X O O . |
$$ | . X O O X . . . . X . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
First, I'd like to make a few comments about the :b61: :w62: exchange. Fuego has already made a few similar exchanges this game. First were the forcing moves in the lower right corner; I liked Daniel's response "respect for opponent is... dropping". Then there was the exchange of F3 for F2 in the lower left.

I can only speculate, but here's what I think: if a move has a semi-obvious sente followup, that usually means ignoring it is quite bad, which means that a pseudo-random playout would value the move quite highly. This is just a guess, but I think the randomness of monte-carlo playouts might lead Fuego to over-value sente exchanges. And in this particular example, multiple players stronger than me have pointed out the dangerous aji of that corner, so I don't think it's a huge loss for Fuego to play this way. On to the next move:


Value: 48.5 %

Sequence:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm63 No Prisoners
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . X . . O X . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . O X . O . X . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 4 2 1 X . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 O . . O . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . 5 . O . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 . . . O . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . . . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . X . O O . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , . . . O . X O O . |
$$ | . X O O X . . . . X . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I strongly expect Daniel to block at F15, but I don't see any harm in not triggering it :grumpy:
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emeraldemon
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Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)

Post by emeraldemon »

As a side note: would there be any interest in creating a Mac application for Fuego? If people think they would use it, I could try to make a binary for Mac users.
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Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)

Post by Laman »

emeraldemon: if you trigger a sequence, i suppose you run Fuego again from the new board position (after 1-2), correct? because while Fuego is pretty good in choosing one move, its predictions further to future are often nonsensical, so i think just triggering 1-2-3 from its prediction could give a suboptimal result. or doesn't it matter?
Spilling gasoline feels good.

I might be wrong, but probably not.
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Re: 135. daniel_the_smith (2d) vs Fuego (bot)

Post by emeraldemon »

Laman wrote:emeraldemon: if you trigger a sequence, i suppose you run Fuego again from the new board position (after 1-2), correct? because while Fuego is pretty good in choosing one move, its predictions further to future are often nonsensical, so i think just triggering 1-2-3 from its prediction could give a suboptimal result. or doesn't it matter?
Yes, if I make a trigger, I run Fuego for the full time again after playing the move. This particular case wasn't actually a trigger, I just numbered the 61-62 exchange for clarity since Daniel didn't make a diagram.
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