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138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=4687

Page 6 of 11

Re: 138. Loons 1d vs Pancake 4d

Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 5:08 pm
by Loons
If white decides to give up sente, eg. in top left (which I am not really expecting), this is what I am thinking about at the moment.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm37 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O 1 . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . l O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . x . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . W . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . 4 . X . . . . . , B . . |
$$ | . b O . . . . O 3 . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 6 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
...Immediately take gote again myself! Brilliant, I know. Really, I was wondering what on earth I could play on bottom, and this is the idea I'm working on. The marked white stone is slightly weaker 'than normal' because I never peeped at 'x' and thus a fight on the bottom is more interesting for me. I didn't want to play a move close to my marked solid stones. I can treat 'a' and 'b' as miai to strengthen my leftern group.

I suppose I should pick up 'l' myself if it's still around after pancake's sente.

Still working on what becomes possible top left when white inevitably does not fix E18.

Vague suspicion the 3-3 is just still invadable in a bad-for-me-ish way.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------
$$ | . . . . . 4 .
$$ | 9 . 3 . O X .
$$ | . . 1 2 . X .
$$ | . . . O . . X
$$ | . 5 7 8 . . .
$$ | . 6 O . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]

Re: 138. Loons 1d vs Pancake 4d

Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 2:25 am
by pancake
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm37 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . W . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
I can think about tenuki'ing, but this would be his sente:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 3 X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
since the moves I discussed earlier are still miai (I think), I'll just play this huge move in the corner..

Re: 138. Loons 1d vs Pancake 4d

Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 2:48 am
by gaius
Hidden until move 45:
Hmmm, I wonder whether this would've been better. I'd say it's pretty much sente due to the aji at 'a', which feels good to me.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . a . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
This way white retains sente, no?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 2 4 . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 X 6 O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . 5 X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Re: 138. Loons 1d vs Pancake 4d

Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:07 am
by Magicwand
for obs only:
i think both player is missing the point of this game.

below is my suggestion.
top is ok to tenuki and go where it is urgent...(bottom)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 2 . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . B . . 3 . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Re: 138. Loons 1d vs Pancake 4d

Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 9:34 am
by Solomon
There's something about that last move that I don't like...it's profit, but I don't think it's big enough. I'd play:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . 1 . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
:w3: looks slow, but I feel it's a move that's bigger than it looks.

Re: 138. Loons 1d vs Pancake 4d

Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 2:51 pm
by ez4u
Araban wrote:
There's something about that last move that I don't like...it's profit, but I don't think it's big enough. I'd play:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . 1 . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
:w3: looks slow, but I feel it's a move that's bigger than it looks.
I agree with Araban. White would like to do something at the bottom but I think the bottom-left White stones ended up over-concentrated. As a result, it seems hard to effectively act directly against the Black stone on the bottom. I think the upper right is the most urgent boundary between Black and White. If White plays there first, the Black top looks immediately over-concentrated in turn. If Black tries to pull out the single stone on the right, White can have fun attacking it and may create the opportunity to profitably attack the bottom stone as well. If Black let's the right side stone go, the White right side territory suddenly grows very large.

Re: 138. Loons 1d vs Pancake 4d

Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 4:44 pm
by Loons
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm39 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O 1 . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Eh, I still like my plan from before (though I am not intending to stick to it religiously). I opted against picking up Q14 to (perhaps misguidedly) try and keep R11's options somewhat open on the right depending on what conditions my current play precipitates.

Also; no idea what to do with R11.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . O . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Play on the intersection of two moyo, threaten to pull it out?

Re: 138. Loons 1d vs Pancake 4d

Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:03 pm
by Aphelion
I don't think Black should make that exchange and tenuki. Before Black was light and hard to attack, after the exchange I think there are less options to handle that stone.

Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 9:18 am
by pancake
Damn, this move actually has a followup if I tenuki.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . 1 O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
This seems to good for him, so I should definitely respond.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . Q . 1 . X . . 2 . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . c . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . b a . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
This would be most likely to happen of I extend up. It's not too bad but the marked white stone looks in a crappy place. He will possibly exchange a for b for the aji at c.

So maybe I should extend down?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . 2 . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . b . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 . a . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
This looks a lot better, eventhough it's bad for influence. I can still jump at a or play b. (Maybe he will play 2 low). These are the only possibilities I can think of. If he plays this without making the side extension it's really weird, so no further analysis needed here.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm39 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:46 pm
by Loons
Sorry about the long wait.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Well, I feel like the edge of this moyo is very big, and not very gote (yet) anyway, I think.

I had failed to consider this descent. Black can make good-ish shape with respect to the centre, but not do that and close that skirt. I hope opting for "neither" wasn't a big mistake :P. My concern was that the following :b43: did not seem quite big enough with moves on eg. the right up for grabs, though this sequence seems a bit farcical somehow and I am perhaps mistaking it.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 black: 1 white: 0
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O 8 1 b X . . f . . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . 6 5 3 O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . c 7 4 O 9 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . e . d . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Edit: Followed by the letters, probably. Retrospectively, that move was probably sente (as well). Oops, d was a ko threat.

Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:56 pm
by pancake
Hmmm, nice move. But I still think he should continue on the bottom after the exchange. So my first thought would be to play a. I think reducing around b is slow and small. c is also still big.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . a . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Let's examine a.. If black responds at a instead of 2, it's a good exchange and I will play on the left. So the only option would be like this. It looks really hard, but let's look at a few possibilities.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . 4 1 . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . 3 2 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . a . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
This is more or less a one way street, and it doesn't look good for me. I should play at a to connect, so he'll make his group facing the center safe.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X 8 6 X O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . 7 5 O X 1 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . a . . 4 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
This looks promising. If 2 at a, 3 b 5. If he cuts at c, I can squeeze on the outside, make him capture my 2 stones and his 2 marked stones will be as good as dead.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 b . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . Y . 3 X O a , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O Y . . c O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . 1 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
But he can play like this instead, which is very bad for me :(.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . 2 X O 4 , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . O X 3 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . 1 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
So this is the only option for me, I think.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . 7 . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 8 9 . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . 1 X O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . 4 O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . 6 5 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Black 8 is overplay, since after a, he doesn't have the ladder at b. (4 at the marked stone)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . b O 3 O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X X 1 . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X a O X Q 2 , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X 8 5 X O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . 7 6 X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
So I guess I can play the keima I want to play!

Ah, by the way, if he tenukis:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . 5 . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . 1 . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . 3 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
EEEExcelent for me.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . W . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
No problem, I suppose you had a valid reason ;)

Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:05 pm
by Loons
Thanks. Hopefully I'll come up with a move by tomorrow.
The game is afoot!

Boring as it may be, a rough sgf of my immediate thoughts. This move is nicer than the third line move I think I suggested earlier.



One day I will read the post on how to upload SGFs.

Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 4:17 pm
by Loons
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm43 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . W . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Well, my logic is as follows; a contact play here will strengthen my corner and white's outside. All my corner really wants is a little more eyespace. So, I'll take my eyespace, white can worry about being strong outside.

Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 3:16 pm
by pancake
Sorry I'm being slow now, didn't have much time yet. And the situation requires some reading!

Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:10 am
by pancake
I was thinking about the cuts at a and b. For the cut at a I need some preparation like the c-d exchange, but the cut doesn't seem promising to me. The cut for him on the lower side is fightable for me, plus he responded like a good submissive little boy already, so it shouldn't be too big. That's why I'll stick to my original plan of playing e.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm43 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d c . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X a . . . |
$$ | . . e . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm43 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
All times are UTC-07:00
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