Life In 19x19

You're going to Asia too. How come you're holding out all this information on us, eh?!

hyperpape wrote:You're going to Asia too. How come you're holding out all this information on us, eh?!

I wasn't hiding it, I just never thought to say. If you're interested I'm going on a big 3 month Go holiday this summer, leaving tomorrow in fact to BIBA (http://biba2011.blogspot.co.uk/) in South Korea for a month, then to Osaka, Japan for the 3 week summer Go camp there by the Kansai-Kiin (https://www.ads.tuwien.ac.at/~hu/osaka_go/index.html) and then a few days in Kyoto with a friend. Then back to the UK for a couple of days and then to the European Go Congress (http://egc2013.go.art.pl/) in Olsztyn, Poland for 2 weeks, and then 2 weeks at the LSG (Polish Summer Go Camp http://lsg.go.art.pl/page). Then after that I should be stronger and win the British Go Championship .

If people are interested I suppose I could make a diary thread to write about it and post some pictures.

I was just kidding about holding out (though I'm curious anytime someone from L19 has an interesting trip to study go).

Uberdude wrote:If people are interested I suppose I could make a diary thread to write about it and post some pictures.

I'd find that interesting.

Boidhre wrote:

Uberdude wrote:If people are interested I suppose I could make a diary thread to write about it and post some pictures.

I'd find that interesting.

Me 2.

me 3

I just like to beat dead horse. That's what this post is about

Plus, this thread started because of my study journal. Hi, Ed

I'm still kicking

Since the thread was necromancered and I'm bored I might as well comment on the zombie-posts:

Boidhre wrote:

Kirby wrote:It's not exactly clear to me what the intention of this thread is, but I'm not sure if it's the kindest thing to do to point out people's failures in achieving their goals so explicitly like this.

I've failed in goals that I've made before, and I wouldn't really mind if people publicly announced my failures (actually, I'm kind of into that thing for some reason :-p). But some people might have different perspectives on the matter...

My initial reaction was similar. Then I stopped and thought about the fact that these people publicly announced their goal and I didn't get the impression that Ed was taking a dig at anyone here or trying to humiliate people. I think he was just giving a long list of people who've gone out publicly with their goals and failed, in order to start a discussion about the setting of very ambitious goals. I wouldn't personally make the point this way but there isn't anything wrong with using public information to make it in my opinion.

I don't remember if I've commented on this thread before, but I think the primary gist is highlighting people's lack of a general sense of just how hard being actually good is, and just a general lack of understanding just how much you've still to go. Getting crushed by someone playing cleanly so you understand what's happening but just powerless to stop it is a humbling experience. You just very concretely see so much you don't understand - things you may cognitively "know" but don't truly know, not until now. And then you realize there's people who make that guy who just wrecked you feel like that. And people who make those people feel like that. And then people who make those guys feel like that.

In my videogame hobbies I oftentimes see people who "want to go pro" moreso for the idea itself than any love of the hobby (in which case the obsession would do its job), without any realistic sense of just how hard it is and clearly lacking the character of a person who really could do it just because they decided to.

Amelia wrote:

SoDesuNe wrote:I'm a bit saddened that there is now some down-talking on study journals, even saying they are ridiculous. I mean, what's the point?

Yeah, but if people all around you keep saying: "I'll make 1D in a year!" or similar and you get the feeling this is a normal and achievable goal, how do you feel when you set this very goal for yourself, and after a year you aren't even barely there? That you're too stupid to achieve that very common goal?

From this list I don't think anyone who sets himself a goal is being ridiculous.

I feel most are. To become really good really quick, you need to either be thoroughly obsessed and/or to have a certain kind of can-do-will-do character that's pretty rare in my experience. Most of these people are lacking in both.

It IS possible, mind you - we can see meteoric rises in pretty much all disciplines, but those are very rare. (They do happen, though - Street Fighter 4 player Infiltration picked the game up in ~09 and was playing in the top8 of Evolution within a year and a half. By his own admission, he did little but work, eat, sleep and play for that time).

SoDesuNe wrote:1-dan is in my opinion a normal and achievable goal but I would never say it doesn't requiere effort.
Personally, I love to read study journals, how player think about their game, their progress and how they want to tackle their goal. It helps me reflect on my own game and on my own methods. And everytime I read a fully energetic post I'm all "Yay, let's do it!" It's fun. There is by the way no one stopping dan-players from telling about their own roads to improvement, I'm very much interested in them.
Again, Go is my slighty more than appropriate leisure time reducing activity aka my hobby. Why do I have to be all reasonable and serious about it? A good goal (in a hobby) does not have to be reasonable for me. It has to motivate to start walking. If I miss it? Who cares? There are no downsides and I've certainly learnt a lot on the way. Basing my goals in a hobby on some quantified data sure feels like I need to justify everything to the guys from the controlling department =D Except... in Go there is none. I don't have to justify anything. I can dream big and when I fail, I still can dream even bigger because the only person who is affected by it is me. And I don't care as long as it's fun : )

This is a great attitude, maybe aside many of those posts putting up time limits. I personally just play to learn and notice a lot of improvement when I'm having a riot.

deja wrote:What interests me is the broader phenomenon of people turning a hobby, usually a sport of some kind, into a professional aspiration. The expectation is almost always the same - if I just work hard enough at it, I can achieve it - and the outcome is almost always the same, it doesn't happen. Hard work simply is not enough for such grand aspirations, but the myth of hard work guaranteeing success persists despite all the evidence to the contrary. I guess that's why myths persist.

Yes, I often see the glass half empty... because it is.

These people like the idea of being good for the most part. I think of ranks and win rate mostly as happy side effects of having had a fun time learning and working on improving myself.

I think most people fail due to an under estimation of required study, and not putting in enough consistent work.

I'm a bit obsessive. I know I have a very aggressive plan myself (3 dan in 3 years? And I'm only 7 kyu? What am I thinking? Though, I'd be happy with just 2 dan in 3 years...3 dan will push me harder). For those who are obsessive and put in the work, amateur dan seems achievable in a couple of years. 1 year to dan is difficult, and more time than I have to commit sadly (work, life, family, etc), but for those who are willing to study every day (2 hours a day), its definitely a reachable goal. Of course, there's right study and wrong study, but that's an entirely different conversation.

As far as going pro, a big part of that is time investment (and indirectly, age). Most professionals (in all fields) spend 4 yrs at a University. Then the first 2-4 years on the job, they're still learning new things (I'm in IT, its been 8 years, and I'll be learning new things until I retire). Ph.D. requires 8 years, and they're highly specialized - something more akin to Go professionals. To those who seriously consider Go as professionals, my guess is you'd need to study for 40+ hours a week for a minimum of 4 years...and then you'll come close. There are exceptions to the rule, but in general, it requires work, and treating it like school or a full time job. (I'm ignoring the argument that most people may not need 4 years of study, and not all of that study is dedicated to one goal, but for Ph.D. students, it is dedicated to a single field for 4 years.)

I think that generally it is logical to set yourself goals that are too high. If you set the bar low, you are not really motivating yourself.
My first goal was to make 15 kyu, and from my knowledge of the game at the time, I felt that this was a level were you understood, or appreciated, the basics of the game. My initial aim was really just to learn how to play the game - and my second target was significantly higher. Nowadays, I don't have any ambitions regarding getting stronger.

Javaness2 wrote:Nowadays, I don't have any ambitions regarding getting stronger.

Why? You are still young.

Well, maybe one day I will regain some ambition in this department, but for now it is simply a question of time when at the moment Life has other priorities. It really isn't that simple for me to go beyond my current rank (or even maintain it), indeed maybe I already reached my peak? Where would I find the time to study, train, travel and play... I suppose i could give up going to the bathroom.

Javaness2 wrote:I suppose i could give up going to the bathroom.

Nono, that is where you put the Go Book you are reading.