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Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=10970

Page 7 of 11

Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 2:11 pm
by shapenaji
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X X O . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X O X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Order is important here, this looks dangerous, but black is okay, we want this so that white can't take it after getting sente.

the following sequence is likely:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a 4 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X X O . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X O X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


"a" seems possible but overly complicated and chock full of aji, 5 is simple, he can't disconnect us, because of the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X 6 7 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X 1 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X X O . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X O X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 2:13 pm
by Bill Spight
Pippen wrote:This is not only a game - it's a defense of my fuseki dogma that you not only can split immediately if you want to but even let the split become weak. When you look at the game moves 1-6 you'll know what I mean. I find it fascinating to test it against other players. I also think that this kind of (antiorthodox) opening and playing style might be humans last chance against Bots one day.


Well, it is not much of a test of the immediate split hypothesis, as ez4u pointed out, because White gets nirensei. Consider this permutation of moves.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


This is not an early split. True, you can argue that the split is premature, and you can certainly argue that it should be at "a" instead of 6, but it is hard to imagine that it loses more than 2 points or so, which is well within error, even of pro games, much less amateur games.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . 5 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


This sequence is playable, although :w4: looks like a pre-komi play. But note that it can easily be reached if :w4: is at 6 instead.

As for letting the splitting stone become weak, as I have noted, that strategem has been known for centuries.

Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 2:18 pm
by emerus
EDIT:Woops, someone beat me to it.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm51
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X X O . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X O X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I thought the atari first was dangerous! We will see.


I think white's move is a big mistake. Solid connection is pretty difficult to answer and leaves less aji such as black's turn at A.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . a O W . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X X O . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X O X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Bill:
This is plausible.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . 7 . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


It's true that the intent of this thread has been derailed. I see his opening style as more of "split the board and create light groups and fights". For black, it's an exercise of turning white's groups into a burden.

Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 2:25 pm
by shapenaji
Emerus:
I don't see much damage white can do if he gives up on this stone and tries to take the corner, there are still massive holes in the shape which should be more than enough to keep us breathing

Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 2:41 pm
by Pippen
Shortcutting things from 1-3. If there are some who do not agree to play 2 they may speak up, otherwise 2 is accepted. So for now, Black to play.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . 3 . O . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X X O . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X O X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 8:11 pm
by Uberdude
Reading problem: can black kill all instead of just trade a with bamboo?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . a O . O 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . 1 O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , 6 3 5 O . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 8 . 7 X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X X O . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X O X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Edit. No: white can live on the side even if can't make something of centre cuts.

Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:05 pm
by illluck
Pippen, did you change your post? I could have sworn that :w3: in your last diagram was a point above.

Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here

Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:41 am
by drmwc
Spoliers seem less effective then normal in this game! :razz:

I think black has made one slight mistake:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . O . O . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X X O . B a . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X O X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I think the marked stone was a little better at a. For example, in some of uberdude's variations white gets a squeeze which is less irritating if we can capture e.g.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 5 . 1 . O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , 3 O 2 O 8 , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 4 X X X 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X X O . . B 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X O X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Nevertheless, black is doing well. I think I have slight preference for this line:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 8 . 4 . 1 O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , 6 3 5 O . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 7 X X X 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O 0 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X X O . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X O X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Continued:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm11
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 4 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . X . O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X O O O 1 , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . a . . O X X X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . a . 3 . O O X 2 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X X O . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X O X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O a . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


WE have large moves at the points marked a, but first we can see how white reponds to an attack on the upper side group.

However, I can't really faoult the alternatives either sucah as

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . B O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . O . O . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X X O . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X O X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Either of the marked stones should be playable.

Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here

Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:33 am
by skydyr
Uberdude wrote:
Reading problem: can black kill all instead of just trade a with bamboo?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . a O . O 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . 1 O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , 6 3 5 O . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 8 . 7 X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X X O . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X O X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Edit. No: white can live on the side even if can't make something of centre cuts.

That still seems like a good way to build strength in the center, and white's not going to be left with much on the side in way of points. This feels like a success to me, where white's original splitting stone became heavy and hasn't accomplished much, while black has strength facing all of white's thinner positions.

Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here

Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:21 am
by Pippen
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , W O . O . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X X O . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X O X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I go with Überdudes idea here, because it seemed the strongest to me. White cannot accept being sealed in, it would be too painful. Instead White wants to pressure the isolated black stones, maybe getting some decent territory through it that can compensate for the probable loss of those 6 right-sided stones. They have still potential to live though, even if black isolates them with the next move. If Black wants to kill them off he'd need one more move there that would give White a big point also.

@illuck: Yes, at first I had such a stone, but after calculating a bit more I found it was not so good.

Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here

Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:21 am
by skydyr
Pippen wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , W O . O . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X X O . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X O X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I go with Überdudes idea here, because it seemed the strongest to me. White cannot accept being sealed in, it would be too painful. Instead White wants to pressure the isolated black stones, maybe getting some decent territory through it that can compensate for the probable loss of those 6 right-sided stones. They have still potential to live though, even if black isolates them with the next move. If Black wants to kill them off he'd need one more move there that would give White a big point also.

@illuck: Yes, at first I had such a stone, but after calculating a bit more I found it was not so good.


Um... It was black's turn?

Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here

Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:32 am
by quantumf
skydyr wrote:Um... It was black's turn?


Well, at least black got a move - Pippen selected black's move based on the various hidden comments. I don't think any other candidates were proposed.

I have to say I don't quite understand the protocol of this particular game. It seems Pippen is keen to keep things moving as quickly as possible, and is selecting moves for black somewhat arbitrarily? I don't really mind, and maybe this is necessary when the opposition is a committee. Also, clearly Pippen is reading all the hidden comments, so it's not a Malkovitch game in the normal sense, which renders the Hide sections pointless.

Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here

Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:37 am
by skydyr
quantumf wrote:
skydyr wrote:Um... It was black's turn?


Well, at least black got a move - Pippen selected black's move based on the various hidden comments. I don't think any other candidates were proposed.

I have to say I don't quite understand the protocol of this particular game. It seems Pippen is keen to keep things moving as quickly as possible, and is selecting moves for black somewhat arbitrarily? I don't really mind, and maybe this is necessary when the opposition is a committee. Also, clearly Pippen is reading all the hidden comments, so it's not a Malkovitch game in the normal sense, which renders the Hide sections pointless.


Oh, I missed the black move as it wasn't marked.

Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here

Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:42 am
by emerus
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . a X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , O O X O . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X X O . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X O X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I'd say 'a' is the only move but don't really want to add a move without discussion. =D I'm not convinced white can still live while saving all the important stones after this cut.

Re: Pippen vs. whomever danplayer comes first here

Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:13 am
by Pippen
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . W O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , O O X O . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X X X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . X O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X X X O . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . O X O X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O O . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I take emerus' propsoal as official^^. Again, this is not a competitive game, more like a discussion, therefore I don't treat it too tightly. We have now an interesting situation: White's stones on the right are still semi-alive, but White better finds a way to compensate by pushing Black's stones around, because the right-sided stones seem doomed or at least highly endangered. Anyway, no wait-and-see or butterfly's anymore, just hard streetfighting from now on :).
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