Page 7 of 12

Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:58 am
by schawipp
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O 3 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 6 4 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


I think there is not much choice. O7 seems a kind of vital point for eyeshape of the w formation. If w gets this move, e.g. ...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm47
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . a , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . 1 O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . 5 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . b 6 . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . c X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

... then w would easily settle and I have a weak structure. W has continuations at (a)-(c) and seems to have no more problems.

Another advantage of my actual :b47: is that it threatens to cut off P5 which is not small. Therefore w might want to connect and I can keep a better initiative in the center, e. g.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm47
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . 3 . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . 5 4 O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

This feels more comfortable even if w may get some aji at the bottom.

Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:29 pm
by moyoaji
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O 3 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 6 4 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . 8 . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


I said in my last comment that my opponent has made me strong here. So, with that thought in mind, I am turning the tables. It is time to attack! :twisted:

It would seem that schawipp thinks he is strong in the area and that I have become heavy. But I say that I am strong and my opponent is heavy.

I considered using this move to connect my stones, but the reading following that is the reason I chose to play the move that I did.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Everyone connects
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . 2 . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


This seems like it lets black off a bit easy. I think he made a mistake. Shouldn't that mean I get some sort of option to punish? With a simple knights move, suddenly the center is looking like it could be his again and his two stones that seemed so far from help are almost connected back. I saw that, if I was playing as black, I would want to play at N5. So I'm taking that move for myself.

Maybe it's just my reaction to move 45 talking, but I'm currently guessing that black will peep at O6 to force another connection. :lol:

Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:48 pm
by Loons
Perhaps I am closer in rank to the players than the dude is.

Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:12 am
by Uberdude
There is a problem of a cut here (next does black need to defend r4 or can he run with the cutting stone?):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm49
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 3 4 . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


My first feeling for white is to try to fix that cut in sente with this attach, the simple plan being:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm48
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . 4 . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . 3 1 2 . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . 5 . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


White could also think about crosscut and there are quite a few tricky variations to consider. Also black can try resisting, in some of those white gets cut and sacrifices the top 4 stones for now in exchange for munching the corner which seems fine to me:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm48
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 1 8 . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . O 3 X 6 . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , 5 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:00 pm
by schawipp
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O 3 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 6 4 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . 8 . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


It's difficult to foresee the development in the center. Anyway it doesn't feel bad to separate the white stones. If white also cuts, I plan following sequence:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm49
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . X 3 4 . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


This looks rather doubtful for w. Thus, probably - instead of :w50: - white will continue jumping into the center and things will get more complicated.

Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 11:16 pm
by moyoaji
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm50
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Well, if I plan to attack the black stones, I can't let them connect. I had two ways to cut.

Why did I choose this way?

First, the general rule is: cut the knight's move on the far side. I'm stronger toward the top, so I should cut toward the bottom.

Second, after reading for a while, I didn't like the position after the other cut. While I would have a tiger's mouth toward the bottom, that shape has several glaring weaknesses that black could exploit immediately. The peep at O4 would be no fun. Additionally, his corner enclosure is left in a much stronger position.

So I'm going to stick to fundamental principles because my reading doesn't show me any reason why violating them would be beneficial.

Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 11:32 am
by schawipp
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm50
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


I guess, this time there is really no choice. However I have to check very carefully, if I can proceed with my original plan:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm50
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . X 2 3 . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . 1 X 6 . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . O . O 5 X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . 8 7 9 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


This looks like a big failure. Therefore, I will probably have to use :b53: to reinforce the corner (e.g. R4) instead playing around L7.

Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 2:05 pm
by moyoaji
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm50
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 2 3 . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


I'm mainly just putting this hide here out of force of habit. This move was inevitable.

Let's see, what to talk about? Well, keeping up with this game and my correspondence ones has been my main source of go since Tuesday. But tomorrow my college club will be bringing go and xiangqi to a meeting of the Chinese club. I hope to introduce the game to some new players then. Maybe one or two will like the games enough to come to our club's meeting the next day. :tmbup:

Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:30 pm
by schawipp
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm50
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 2 3 . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . 1 X 4 . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Yes, its an empty triangle... :oops: However - as we have already seen above - I must not tenuki and give white an atari on the Q6 stone. Originally, I planned a more quite and solid move like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm53
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O X 2 4 . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . O . O 3 X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


However, after :w54: and :w56: white gets easily an eye at the right border. Therefore I thought about how to prevent the atari and this white eye simultaneously. The result might be a bit ugly but the cut below anyway seems protected now, e. g.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm50
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 2 3 . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . 1 X 4 . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . 5 6 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X 7 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . 8 0 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


So, let's go for it...

Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:02 pm
by skydyr
schawipp wrote:Yes, its an empty triangle... :oops: However - as we have already seen above - I must not tenuki and give white an atari on the Q6 stone. Originally, I planned a more quite and solid move like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm53
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . O X 2 4 . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . O . O 3 X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


However, after :w54: and :w56: white gets easily an eye at the right border. Therefore I thought about how to prevent the atari and this white eye simultaneously. The result might be a bit ugly but the cut below anyway seems protected now, e. g.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm50
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 2 3 . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . 1 X 4 . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . 5 6 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X 7 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . 8 0 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


So, let's go for it...


To me, the perceived need for an empty triangle here, which still has shape issues, points to a mistake in previous moves. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that it was the peep at :b45:.

That said, I would rather has just drawn back at R4 and used white's making an eye on the side as impetus to attack the other group, since the corner would be stable. That's why black cut in the first place, right?

Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:07 pm
by moyoaji
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm50
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . 5 O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 2 3 . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . 1 X 4 . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Black chose to defend his corner. An interesting option. I don't think it's a bad choice, but I don't know if I'd have used an empty triangle to do it. :scratch:

In any case, attacking the corner is going to be harder after that move, so the question is: how can I profit by attacking black's cutting stones?

This move reduces black's liberties down to three. It creates an immediate threat of surrounding at M8. Sadly, I do not have the resulting ladder if black resists at M7 followed by N7 and a squeeze. I'd need to settle for the hane on the outside at L7 or for letting black escape either toward the top by saving my cutting stone or toward the bottom by forcing the situation anyway.

Regardless, I don't think black will ignore this move. I'm expecting a jump to M7/8 or perhaps a lean against my lower stones at N6. Or maybe even a longer 2-stone jump. I'm not sure. I feel like my opponent is getting less and less predictable in this game. Maybe I'm just missing something he sees. Or maybe it's like that dress thing everyone is talking about today: we both look at the same board, but perceive a different game. ;-)

Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 3:53 am
by kex
moyoaji wrote:In any case, attacking the corner is going to be harder after that move, so the question is: how can I profit by attacking black's cutting stones?



Is my judgment totally wrong? I feel white has no possibilities for attack here; the three stones floating around P5 are just too weak, with no base and a very narrow escape route, leading towards black thickness.

Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 8:01 am
by Uberdude
kex wrote:
moyoaji wrote:In any case, attacking the corner is going to be harder after that move, so the question is: how can I profit by attacking black's cutting stones?



Is my judgment totally wrong? I feel white has no possibilities for attack here; the three stones floating around P5 are just too weak, with no base and a very narrow escape route, leading towards black thickness.


No, I share your feeling. Whilst I think white should be able to live with both groups I would have some fear, but no fear as black. That's why I suggested trying to protect against the cut in sente before the n5 jump.

Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 3:47 pm
by schawipp
My new password: 1y<d_!>x1dVM4DNJJ3nHqx{P<C{Y"8SgL/W$xI9OQTW>|tP>Q<$#&fyt<Fey?xT9?fl%f{v3-5GkCnnCJU+MK+)9mp{[@'^Nq@KK3-5ogc;;$X ;-)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm50
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . 5 O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . X 2 3 . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . 1 X 4 . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Obviously I need to do something for my O7 cutting stones, and I was deciding between L7 and M7. There are quite a lot of possible variations from here on. Finally, I rejected M7 because I don't like the shape after...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm55
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . 4 . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . 3 2 . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Further, with L7 there is no immediate danger for the O7 stones and w has two groups to care for.

Re: #246 moyoaji vs. schawipp

Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 6:58 pm
by moyoaji
110 characters is quite the password. How did you ever come up with that? :)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm50
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . 5 O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 6 7 . X 2 3 . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . 1 X 4 . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


Well, my opponent has now done something that I predicted he might do even though I thought he wouldn't do it. So can I say I saw this coming? :scratch:

I don't think the 2-point jump was a good idea. It seems like it leaves a weakness. Namely, this move. Because I have a stone at N5 I'll be able to cut here and black's atari will not be able to ladder or capture my stones.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 No ladder from the marked point
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . X O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X O . X . . . . . . . . O O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 6 3 5 X O O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 4 X X O . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . C . O X X . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . O . O . X . . |
$$ | . . O , . X . . . X . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]


After this cut, black is still at just 3 liberties and my bottom side group has gotten stronger. I do need to be mindful of my group at P8. It has 5 liberties, but not much in the way of eyespace. Maybe this is reckless? Either way, I started this fight so I have only myself to blame. Let's just hope my central influence can help me to win it.