8th Ing Cup

[Krama]

Tang won by 1 point + 2 points of penalty. So in the end score was W+3

[Majordomo]

Could you clarify the whole penalty thing? Never heard about point penalties in Go (but I don't follow the pro scene much - so my only comparison is Chess where you can get a straight loss as a penalty but I'm curious how Go has a more granular system in place).

[Uberdude]

Could you clarify the whole penalty thing?

It is a special feature of the Ing rules timing system. In most games pros use a main time (e.g. 2 hours) and some number of byo-yomi overtime periods (e.g. 5 times 1 minute, if you move within the minute you don't use up that byo-yomi period, if you do you lose it, use all 5 and you lose on time). In the Ing cup you have some main time (2.5 hours?) and rather than byo-yomi you can "purchase" up to 3 (?) extra time periods of something like 20 minutes at a cost of 2 points each. It is not a penalty for bad behaviour or cheating or stealing the referee's tea or anything like that.

[emeraldemon]

or stealing the referee's tea or anything like that.

Not that Cho got penalized for that

Go Tang Weixing! Broke the unbeatable Park's winning streak. Now we have to wait till October for the conclusion...

[aeb]

komi is a whole number, how can you have a x.5 score?

Although komi is 8 black wins ties so it is functionally equivalent to 7.5 komi (or 7.2 or 2e + pi/2).

That statement has been false (because fractional points can occur). I don't know at what point the Ing rules were changed to abolish these fractional points.

[yoyoma]

http://www.cyberoro.com/news/news_view. ... =1&cmt_n=0



In the lower center, you see 4 white stones surrounded by black, this is the 8 point komi. Above that in the same black area you can see 2 white stones, that is the 4 penalty points Park had to pay. And in the upper right corner you can see white's margin of victory, 2 points of territory plus 1 black stone = 3 point win. Without any penalties Park would have won by 1 point, but instead lost.

Tang had 18 seconds left on his clock before he would have to pay his own 2 point penalty.

The time controls are 3 hours main time, plus you can purchase 2 extra time periods of 20 minutes but pay 2 penalty points for each one. If you use both of those you lose on time.

[xed_over]

komi is a whole number, how can you have a x.5 score?

Although komi is 8 black wins ties so it is functionally equivalent to 7.5 komi (or 7.2 or 2e + pi/2).

That statement has been false (because fractional points can occur). I don't know at what point the Ing rules were changed to abolish these fractional points.

That is simply not true
http://www.usgo.org/files/pdf/IngRules2006.pdf

[xed_over]

Could you clarify the whole penalty thing?

It is a special feature of the Ing rules timing system. In most games pros use a main time (e.g. 2 hours) and some number of byo-yomi overtime periods (e.g. 5 times 1 minute, if you move within the minute you don't use up that byo-yomi period, if you do you lose it, use all 5 and you lose on time). In the Ing cup you have some main time (2.5 hours?) and rather than byo-yomi you can "purchase" up to 3 (?) extra time periods of something like 20 minutes at a cost of 2 points each. It is not a penalty for bad behaviour or cheating or stealing the referee's tea or anything like that.

http://www.usgo.org/files/pdf/IngRules2006.pdf

Penalty points:
These rules first penalize the player two points for exceeding the basic time, before allotting an additional time equal to 1/6 of the basic time to the player. Each player is limited to three periods of additional time. If the penalty points exceeds 6 points or the total additional time exceeds half of the basic time, the player loses by forfeit.

Alternatively, the tournament director could elect to use regular byo-yomi periods instead.

[xed_over]

First white's 8 points of komi are represented by putting 8 white stones inside black's territory.

I'm sure you meant to say 4 stones

edit: re: your game one post

[xed_over]

Tang won by 1 point + 2 points of penalty. So in the end score was W+3

No, actually, without the time penalty, Park would have won by 1 point. There was a 4 point penalty, so Tang won by 3

[Vesa]

Tang won by 1 point + 2 points of penalty. So in the end score was W+3

No, actually, without the time penalty, Park would have won by 1 point. There was a 4 point penalty, so Tang won by 3

With 12 points komi

I once won a game in the European Ing Cup by 5 points, getting 14 points komi.

Cheers,
Vesa

[Kirby]

Either as Park or Tang, I'd feel unsatisfied by both games so far. From Tang's side, he let the first game go in the later part of the game, and lost on the board in the second game. From Park's perspective, he was behind the first game and won due to Tang's mistake, and lost the second game from the point penalty (and was also behind for awhile).

I hope that the break before October gives both players time to recover and play high quality games.

[idontgetit]

Either as Park or Tang, I'd feel unsatisfied by both games so far. From Tang's side, he let the first game go in the later part of the game, and lost on the board in the second game. From Park's perspective, he was behind the first game and won due to Tang's mistake, and lost the second game from the point penalty (and was also behind for awhile).

I hope that the break before October gives both players time to recover and play high quality games.

For the second game though, the only reason Park ended up "winning" on the board is because of time issues; Tang made many mistakes in endgame because he was trying to play fast so that he won't have to take a penalty. In fact, he would've gotten more points if he just took a 2 pt penalty and played a better endgame.

[Kirby]

Well, that's:
1.) Hypothetical; and
2.) Still not satisfying, right?

The results are the results and I am not saying the wrong person won either game. I simply wouldn't feel 100% satisfied as either player in either game.

[idontgetit]

Well, yes, Tang weixing was pretty frustrated when he "lost" by 1 point on the board, according to some chinese commentators.

And Park probably has a lot to reflect on, since in both games Tang basically had a really good position since the opening, which is extremely rare for Tang because his opening is really weak for a top professional (according to meng tailing anyway).