Following Iyama Yuta (no world ranking discussions)
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kimidori
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Re: Following Iyama Yuta (no world ranking discussions)
The two human opponents in the World Go Championship are all stronger than him, and Zen indeed shows some quality in its game. Iyama somehow shows that he can compete with top players. But missing the top place in Group A is somehow regrettable, as he now has to face a very big challenge names Shin. Let's see how he can fare.
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xiayun
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Re: Following Iyama Yuta (no world ranking discussions)
kimidori wrote:The two human opponents in the World Go Championship are all stronger than him, and Zen indeed shows some quality in its game. Iyama somehow shows that he can compete with top players. But missing the top place in Group A is somehow regrettable, as he now has to face a very big challenge names Shin. Let's see how he can fare.
Missing the top spot in a group doesn't really matter, since the draws for the rest of the rounds are completely random (no seeding involved), with the only rule being players from same country can't play each other until absolutely necessarily (when one country accounts for more than half of the remaining field).
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Uberdude
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Re: Following Iyama Yuta (no world ranking discussions)
In the Samsung cup I rather liked the way Iyama dealt with another early attachment from Mateusz (for analysis of another in his game with Song Taekon see baduk1's review with Catalin Taranu 5p: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_v_7l_8pG-M). After Mateusz (as black) played the slow but steady good shape move of 1 (something looser but fast-paced around L16 also possible, or the cheeky d18 maybe sente) Iyama split the top side and Mateusz attached on the left:
There's a rather similar move when white wedges the side of a mini-Chinese opening. I think the plan is if white plays the natural looking hane on top then white ought to defend the cut and black gets to play on both sides. On a simple level black's attachment looks a bit weird, attaching to a weak (or at least not-strong) stone thus making it (locally) stronger, but it does end up unable to make a nice extension and has a somewhat heavy feeling.
So Iyama played hane underneath and Mateusz played counter hane (extend back is a bit soft shape), offering a trade of white can capture that stone on the 2nd line but then he captures the other in a ladder to nicely build the right side (and the white ponnuki is still cramped on the top side). So Iyama tenukid and attached in the corner and it turned into a shape like the small avalanche but with black extending instead of hane for 10:
Mateusz connected on the top side making 3rd line territory, nothing too spectacular, and white's 2 corner stones still had troublesome aji.
So white could hane on the 2nd line after extending twice, and Mateusz, after cutting once to give white bad aji, needed to come back to complete the corner capture. Iyama then capture the cutting stone in a ladder. Black was pushed down to the 2nd line on the right side, which looks pretty succcessful for white to me. Black does have the aji of a ladder breaker, but in fact when he pulled the stone out quite some time later Iyama could just sacrifice it on a small scale with the squeeze at b (and even better his defence of the cutting point with i was a double purpose move in attacking a black group in the lower right). I wonder if this was one of those situations where black should have pulled out the ladder stone once earlier as a probe: it's rather lossy if white does then capture 2 stones with a tortoise-shell rather than ponnuki shape, but the squeeze sucked too.
There's a rather similar move when white wedges the side of a mini-Chinese opening. I think the plan is if white plays the natural looking hane on top then white ought to defend the cut and black gets to play on both sides. On a simple level black's attachment looks a bit weird, attaching to a weak (or at least not-strong) stone thus making it (locally) stronger, but it does end up unable to make a nice extension and has a somewhat heavy feeling.
So Iyama played hane underneath and Mateusz played counter hane (extend back is a bit soft shape), offering a trade of white can capture that stone on the 2nd line but then he captures the other in a ladder to nicely build the right side (and the white ponnuki is still cramped on the top side). So Iyama tenukid and attached in the corner and it turned into a shape like the small avalanche but with black extending instead of hane for 10:
Mateusz connected on the top side making 3rd line territory, nothing too spectacular, and white's 2 corner stones still had troublesome aji.
So white could hane on the 2nd line after extending twice, and Mateusz, after cutting once to give white bad aji, needed to come back to complete the corner capture. Iyama then capture the cutting stone in a ladder. Black was pushed down to the 2nd line on the right side, which looks pretty succcessful for white to me. Black does have the aji of a ladder breaker, but in fact when he pulled the stone out quite some time later Iyama could just sacrifice it on a small scale with the squeeze at b (and even better his defence of the cutting point with i was a double purpose move in attacking a black group in the lower right). I wonder if this was one of those situations where black should have pulled out the ladder stone once earlier as a probe: it's rather lossy if white does then capture 2 stones with a tortoise-shell rather than ponnuki shape, but the squeeze sucked too.
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TheCannyOnion
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Re: Following Iyama Yuta (no world ranking discussions)
pookpooi wrote:I am so happy. After World Go Championship people are afraid that Iyama Yuta can't keep up with international level. But he proved himself in LG cup round 1-2 and Samsung Cup group A too. It's still very early to celebrate though.
Any celebration right now is definitely too early. Being ranked at #5 by Goratings, Iyama achieved only 1-1 against the #20-ranked Fan Yunruo. His other win was against Mateusz, not exactly a quality opponent, no offense to Mateusz.
You being "so happy" about Iyama's performance itself is telling: perhaps you were not quite convinced he deserves the #5 ranking on Goratings?
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Uberdude
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Re: Following Iyama Yuta (no world ranking discussions)
The first day of the Meijin title match 2nd game against Takao Shinji finished with a rather dramatic exchange and then cut in a moyo to start the next big fight tomorrow. The fight in the middle left happened following Iyama's marked attachment played as a ladder breaker against lower right, which Takao ignored to make the honte capture (rather than any fancier/looser AlphaGo style move at a).
1 and 2 look fairly normal, but then 3 was rather spectacular and a big trade followed with white capturing the key cutting stones and making black's top left as good as dead, with black busting through white's press on the lower side, killing the lower left corner (or maybe there's still some aji there for a carpenter's square ko?), and turning the lower side into 95%(?)-territory. Seeing as black had tenukid the lower left press but turned it into a junk move against a wall my initial feeling is maybe this trade was good for black. White did get sente though.
Iyama then approached the top right, making the top side territory and Takao built up a big centre moyo. The top side is big, but it does feel a bit like making territory with thickness to me.
So Iyama then started operations against Takao's huge centre with a push and cut; exciting times ahead! I suppose he must be confident in his ability to cut this moyo down to size to have played the way he did on the top. Something important to notice is white's X marked cutting stone might not actually be a cutting stone as black can play at a to force the semedori and ko-capture the squared stone in sente. Also is 21 a little far? At tengen would be safer for the fight to come, but I suppose Takao figured it was not enough and made it too easy for Iyama to reduce the lower side from the outside. Place your bets!
1 and 2 look fairly normal, but then 3 was rather spectacular and a big trade followed with white capturing the key cutting stones and making black's top left as good as dead, with black busting through white's press on the lower side, killing the lower left corner (or maybe there's still some aji there for a carpenter's square ko?), and turning the lower side into 95%(?)-territory. Seeing as black had tenukid the lower left press but turned it into a junk move against a wall my initial feeling is maybe this trade was good for black. White did get sente though.
Iyama then approached the top right, making the top side territory and Takao built up a big centre moyo. The top side is big, but it does feel a bit like making territory with thickness to me.
So Iyama then started operations against Takao's huge centre with a push and cut; exciting times ahead! I suppose he must be confident in his ability to cut this moyo down to size to have played the way he did on the top. Something important to notice is white's X marked cutting stone might not actually be a cutting stone as black can play at a to force the semedori and ko-capture the squared stone in sente. Also is 21 a little far? At tengen would be safer for the fight to come, but I suppose Takao figured it was not enough and made it too easy for Iyama to reduce the lower side from the outside. Place your bets!
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dsatkas
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Re: Following Iyama Yuta (no world ranking discussions)
He is an absolute madman, i couldn't believe that he was letting Takao create this huge moyo with all these keima. Completely blew my mind. I think he did something similar (not that extreme though) in another match with Takao which he lost by something like 0.5. Hope he has counted correctly this time...
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jeromie
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Re: Following Iyama Yuta (no world ranking discussions)
If white can reduce the center moyo in sente and invade the top right corner, I think Iyama will get enough to win. Or am I misjudging the current territory balance?
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kimidori
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Re: Following Iyama Yuta (no world ranking discussions)
I'm watching the game right now, (on phone, so cannot post diagram) and Iyama is indeed trying to live inside the moyo, even after Takeo spent one more move to defend the corner. What a plan...
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Uberdude
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Re: Following Iyama Yuta (no world ranking discussions)
Takao resigned once he failed to kill Iyama's group in the moyo. It seems to me like Iyama got the better of the 2 tenukis before the centre cut fight resumed: his move ended up crucial to the counterattack he used to live, whereas he made Takao's knight move at the top right look inefficient.
Here is the position at move 95 (note Takao did indeed thicken the moyo in sente with the 2-1 tesuji at lower right): Takao had just played the marked nose tesuji. Rather than cutting the 2 stones and trying to kill them all in the moyo this lets white save the 2 stones for a modest sente reduction or else try to live with them with cramped liberties compared to if black cut at a and white could extend there. Iyama then leaped into the moyo at 1 and Takao enclosed the top right corner at 2.
What happens if Takao answers for the moyo at 2? Will Iyama then invade the top right corner, maybe saving the 2 stones in sente first (or maybe not if it's aji keshi, it does help black fix the bad aji). Is all that centre and right side black territory now? Did Takao count that this wasn't enough for him? Perhaps white doesn't save the 2 stones first because the 3-3 is not purely a territory move, it is also a base for black's stones in the upper right so if you 3-3 and black plays somewhere on lower side maybe white can pull out the 2 stones with more power, as there is some semeai threat against black so killing is not so easy.
Anyway, the way the game continued, Iyama nicely got 2 forcing moves out of the top right footsweep, 1 and more importantly 9 below, and these helped his centre group make shape (after a/b exchange c was later sente as threatening nose tesuji and squeeze at d). The initial footsweep ended up looking like a premature yose kosumi. If Takao wanted to play in that area of the board, was there a better move? Something like 3-3 itself means Iyama couldn't get those forcing moves but is very slack for points so maybe he'd just gently reduce and win.
Here is the position at move 95 (note Takao did indeed thicken the moyo in sente with the 2-1 tesuji at lower right): Takao had just played the marked nose tesuji. Rather than cutting the 2 stones and trying to kill them all in the moyo this lets white save the 2 stones for a modest sente reduction or else try to live with them with cramped liberties compared to if black cut at a and white could extend there. Iyama then leaped into the moyo at 1 and Takao enclosed the top right corner at 2.
What happens if Takao answers for the moyo at 2? Will Iyama then invade the top right corner, maybe saving the 2 stones in sente first (or maybe not if it's aji keshi, it does help black fix the bad aji). Is all that centre and right side black territory now? Did Takao count that this wasn't enough for him? Perhaps white doesn't save the 2 stones first because the 3-3 is not purely a territory move, it is also a base for black's stones in the upper right so if you 3-3 and black plays somewhere on lower side maybe white can pull out the 2 stones with more power, as there is some semeai threat against black so killing is not so easy.
Anyway, the way the game continued, Iyama nicely got 2 forcing moves out of the top right footsweep, 1 and more importantly 9 below, and these helped his centre group make shape (after a/b exchange c was later sente as threatening nose tesuji and squeeze at d). The initial footsweep ended up looking like a premature yose kosumi. If Takao wanted to play in that area of the board, was there a better move? Something like 3-3 itself means Iyama couldn't get those forcing moves but is very slack for points so maybe he'd just gently reduce and win.
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pookpooi
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Re: Following Iyama Yuta (no world ranking discussions)
I'm totally lost when it came to Japanese titles, but if Iyama Yuta win this he'll resume his seven crowns reign right?
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Uberdude
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Re: Following Iyama Yuta (no world ranking discussions)
pookpooi wrote:I'm totally lost when it came to Japanese titles, but if Iyama Yuta win this he'll resume his seven crowns reign right?
Yes, he holds the other 6 currently. He has the Oza and Tengen title matches in October - December this year, both against Ichiriki Ryo, but he can't lose those until late November and this Meijin match will be over by early November at the latest.
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Drew
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Re: Following Iyama Yuta (no world ranking discussions)
Uberdude wrote:pookpooi wrote:I'm totally lost when it came to Japanese titles, but if Iyama Yuta win this he'll resume his seven crowns reign right?
Yes, he holds the other 6 currently. He has the Oza and Tengen title matches in October - December this year, both against Ichiriki Ryo, but he can't lose those until late November and this Meijin match will be over by early November at the latest.
Outside of the generous contributions to 19x19 by yourself and others, what's the best English-language avenue to keep up with Japanese professional go these days?
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dfan
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Re: Following Iyama Yuta (no world ranking discussions)
Drew wrote:Outside of the generous contributions to 19x19 by yourself and others, what's the best English-language avenue to keep up with Japanese professional go these days?
The AGA E-Journal has some high-level news (search for "Power Report"), though you'll have to sift through the American news to get to it.
If you want it as email, there are instructions for subscribing here.
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jeromie
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Re: Following Iyama Yuta (no world ranking discussions)
Uberdude wrote:If Takao wanted to play in that area of the board, was there a better move? Something like 3-3 itself means Iyama couldn't get those forcing moves but is very slack for points so maybe he'd just gently reduce and win.
When the game got to this position, I felt like the knight's move at P18 was preventing Iyama from making shape on the side by threatening to cut at Q15 (after some preparation with his N12 group). Is that something that may have come up of Takao played directly on the 3-3?