77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

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gaius
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Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Post by gaius »

DIV wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm53 robinz vs DIV - Move 53; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

(...)Hopefully I am not playing another overplay.

This is not an overplay, it's an empty move. The black wall is already reasonably strong, and the center is not that big. The last move doesn't add territory, and the influence it gives is kind of vague. Remember the list of three:
1. Do I have any weak groups? => defend!
2. Does my opponent have attackable groups? => attack!
3. Otherwise, play the (territorially) biggest point.

I indicated some alternatives. 'a' makes life (EDIT: unnecessary, white cannot kill - silly me! 'e' IS good though, because it's double sente). 'b' defends while taking points. 'c' threatens white's group, aiming at a running battle and potential double attack on the two white stones at the top. My tesuji sense tells me that there is probably something at the bottom, but I'm not sure, and that requires careful reading. Perhaps 'd' could be an interesting start?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm53 robinz vs DIV - Move 53; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . a . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . e O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . c . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . O d . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Last edited by gaius on Mon Nov 15, 2010 8:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
My name is Gijs, from Utrecht, NL.

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Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Post by topazg »

@Gaius

"a" kills?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm54 robinz vs DIV - Move 53; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . 1 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 3 X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | 2 . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | 6 X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 5 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm54 robinz vs DIV - Move 53; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . 1 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 4 X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | 2 . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | 6 X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 5 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm54 robinz vs DIV - Move 53; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . 1 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 4 X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | 2 . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | 5 X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 6 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


What am I missing?


EDIT:

Brainfart, you didn't mean "a" kills, but "a" stops Black from dying ... :w54: at :b55: ...
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Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Post by robinz »

Nice to see the dan players having a good discussion about this game - keep it up guys :D

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm54 robinz vs DIV - Move 54; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Well, there we have it - black decides to give himself some eyespace, as I indeed predicted. Perhaps I should have played in that region myself to stop it - but I was slightly worried about black's possibilities of expansion to the east instead, perhaps linking up his two groups and troubling mine on the bottom. Anyway, too late to change it now.

A quick count of the position - black still has the 60-70 odd points that he did last time, but I now have all of that bottom as pretty solid territory, which I make to be about 40 points. I have komi as well, but still need roughly 20 more than black in the central region and left side in order to win the game. Looking at the board as it stands now, how can I do that?

The obvious answer is to do something aggressive against the recently-created black E5 group - black's last several moves have indicated that he's going to stake everything on it living. Certainly, if I can kill it, I have at least 50 or so points in that area, and become a big favourite for plenty more in the central region - if the miracle happens, black would pretty much have to resign :lol:

OK, I don't seriously expect that to happen, but it indicates that what I must do in the next few moves is attack this group for all it's worth. While a kill won't be easy, it's still not abundantly clear precisely where black's eyes are - there is no side of the board to help him with my C10 stone and C4 wall (both pretty much invulnerable to counterattack for the forseeable future, at any rate) bearing down on him, and it's going to take several more plays from him to make 2 in the F7 region. And while I put the pressure on, the theory is that I should be able to make some definite territory elsewhere in that still wide open central region - hopefully 10-20 points or so, while black is busy securing for himself only 5 or so by living.

But I've not played enough games to know exactly how to carry out the attack in practice. I've considered several moves here, having stared at the position for quite some time, and I've come down in favour of this ogeima. It both makes more territory for me (the ogeima isn't the most solidly connected of moves, of that I am aware, but I looked at a few variations and don't see how black can comfortably cut), and threatens to put stones in the area where black will want them for making eyes. There were two other options I seriously considered. One was J10, or thereabouts, with similar intentions to the move I've chosen, but coming from a different direction. However, compared to my choice, it seems thinner, and less directly attacking (although admittedly mapping out more potential territory). The other was a move like C8 or D8, which would interfere with black's hopes for an eye on the side, as well as giving me more territory on the left. There may also be threats to cut off the C6 stone in the offing from this line of play. But I think such plays can wait, given that my position on that side is fairly strong as it is - black can't immediately attack there, or get an eye. I think attacking from the centre is the way forward for now.
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Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Post by gaius »

@topazg:
D'oh! The brain fart is all mine. Silly misread, sorry for wasting your time! This one doesn't work:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm54 robinz vs DIV - Move 54; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . 2 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 3 X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | 1 . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |[/go]
My name is Gijs, from Utrecht, NL.

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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Both players have lost their sense of direction. As noted by another commentator, black latest was an empty move. Black's central group is not nearly as easy to kill as either of them suspects.
But black's right lower corner cound be in serious trouble if white simply plays R2.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X 5 . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O . , . . . . . X . 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . O . . O . . X 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O 1 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Even if black lives, white benefits by getting eye space around T5/T6 for his otherwise weak group.


Also, in the opposite corner, isn't B13 dual sente? It appears in the Topazg/Gaius discussions above that black is one move from dying. That makes B13 sente for white.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . 3 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |[/go]


It looks like sente for black, as the following hane would be most unpleasant.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Post by explo »

@Joaz

In your first diagram, I don't see why black should answer 3 at 4 rather than at S5. With Q6 and R6 in place, I don't see the danger for black.
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Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

explo wrote:@Joaz

In your first diagram, I don't see why black should answer 3 at 4 rather than at S5. With Q6 and R6 in place, I don't see the danger for black.


Agreed, that is another possible variation, as is S6. They may be better. But nonetheless, white still secures the eye with S7 and an eventual S9.
Note that I did not claim that the group was killable, merely that attacking can benefit white, as opposed to the current attempts on black's central/left group.
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Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Post by DIV »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm55 robinz vs DIV - Move 55; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


hey, robinz sorry about delay here, been busy.

This is a big move and don't really know if my response is correct, I am not sure what to do per se to get sente here and keep it while playing a big move. This might seem weird...I feel like i'm losing though. So I play a ladder breaker at this point to try to play ladder breaker for a play at Q8 if he responds in the way i assume he will, which I want to turn into death for the white stones bordering mine up top there, or at least one and any possible ladder though i doubt he'll let it go that far. I don't know if this is a great plan. I want to try it though, something interesting and start a big fight or at least clamp down and get some territory.
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Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Post by robinz »

No need to apologise for the delay :) My next move may take me quite a while, so there's no point you staying up for it. But here are my thoughts for the observers:

All I can say is wwwhhhaaaatttt? Surely you can't tenuki here? And especially not to as weird-looking a move as that - it's too far from the right-hand side group to hope to stay connected if I try to cut. On the other hand, it does put pressure on the J15/M15 group - I think his attachment at L15 now will cut that right apart, and possibly connect his last move to the group on top. That would certainly be annoying. But if I choose to I can just play at L15 (or somewhere else close to it) myself. He then would get another move to try to connect to the right, but I'm not convinced even then that he can do it.

I may try to read out some of those possibilities therefore, but right now I feel that would be really missing the point. As I said in discussing my last move, the result of the whole game seems to be more or less hanging on the fate of black's E5 group. If I can kill it, it's not far off game over. While if it lives - well, that's not so clear; I actually think I'll be well in the game, but I'll be behind and needing to claim a large amount of the territory in which black has just placed his stone.

So, there is some serious reading to be done concerning what I can manage to achieve against the E5 group with the move now. Moves like H7 or H8 are suggesting themselves. Reading them out is going to be very tough for me, and I'm not sure if I can manage to reach firm conclusions. However, the situation of that group looks delicate enough that, even if I can't kill, I should be able to get several useful moves in in sente. If he defends and it becomes apparent he'll live anyway, I'll go back and find a response to black's last move. (I trust DIV not to be an idiot, by the way - I assume he's done some reading of his own and thinks his group is alive; but it's quite complicated and I don't have to believe him :twisted:)

That's the general plan right now - and overall I feel a lot more happy about my position than I did before I saw black's move. It basically looks like a wild overplay that is further ignoring an urgent situation elsewhere on the board. But I'm going to have to actually read out at least a few possible sequences before I decide on a move.
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Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Post by robinz »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm56 robinz vs DIV - Move 56; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


OK, I think this is better than a move at H7 or H8 or thereabouts. The trouble was that black, with plays here and at C5, could get himself an eye on the edge - and more or less in sente too (OK, I know I said he couldn't when commenting on my last move, but now I think I must have misread). It then seems hard for me to prevent a further one in the region around F7. The move I've played absolutely removes any chance of an eye on the side, and can also undermines the other eyespace a little from the left, as well as from the right. I don't know if he can get two eyes there, but he'll have to - his other friendly stones are much too far away.

This move also has the advantage of expanding my left-hand side territory (and giving definite life to that group, which wasn't absolutely certain yet, even if in practical terms virtually so). It's also at the expense of potential black territory if he does manage to live. Finally, it's definitely connected to my other stones - one problem of the moves around H8 was that (in combination with my ogeima which is already a pretty loose connection) they would leave a fair amount of unpleasant aji which black might have been able to use to live.

If it doesn't kill, this move must be sente - for example white D8 next (amongst others) is going to cause black serious problems in living.
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Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Post by gaius »

Hmmm, this looks pretty interesting for black:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm56 robinz vs DIV - Move 56; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . 5 4 . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . 6 O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O 2 , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O 3 . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
My name is Gijs, from Utrecht, NL.

When in doubt, play the most aggressive move
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

gaius wrote:
Hmmm, this looks pretty interesting for black:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm56 robinz vs DIV - Move 56; prisoners: Black 0 White 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . 5 4 . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X . 6 O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O 2 , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O 3 . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I agree that cutting through there is a good strategic goal for black, but this particular attempt doesn't seem to lead to a good result. White can force this position:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm62
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 3 . 5 . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . O X 4 . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X 2 X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O X 1 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

( black doesn't have a ko threat big enough to try starting a ko with 63 at J6.)
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Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Post by topazg »

Joaz Banbeck wrote:
I'd take the white side in this position:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm66
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 3 . 5 . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . O X 4 . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X 2 X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O X 1 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It's very interesting though - not sure who I'd rather have:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm62
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . X . . X . . X . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . O . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . 1 . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . O X X . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X X X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O O O X O X O 3 . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O 4 2 O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 O . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black gets sente back here, and the lower side is wrecked for White. Of course, the lower right group of Black's is looking very unhealthy, but it's easily fixable in gote with R2. This is still a big reduction for Black to make though.
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Hey Graham, what are you doing here? Don't you have some AWOL soldiers to be chasing? :D
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Re: 77: robinz[12k] v. DIV[12k]

Post by topazg »

Joaz Banbeck wrote:Hey Graham, what are you doing here? Don't you have some AWOL soldiers to be chasing? :D


Hehe, yeah, I'm not sure whether there's a suggestion coming or not, so I was leaving it a bit longer - no one likes a nag!
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