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Teamovitch #1

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=2198

Page 7 of 42

Re: Teamovitch #1

Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:10 am
by Jordus
My suggestion for :b9:
I was really put into a dilemma here because I decided the best move would be the pincer, however, Jedo suggested the high version of the pincer I want to play... I really think the low version is better... To me a high pincer would be better if we had a stone around (a).... In my mind high pincers are mostly used to create walls and that wall would be better served with a stone at (a)....

So after much deliberation I decided to make the low pincer my move.... Since we have sente I think it is the best thing to do... white will either run at (z) or try to make base with (y), then we can pincer again at (h)....

If white tries to make base at r or s he ends up with two weak split groups... Black still has sente...

So even though I think we should give Joaz more options then a few pincers... I think I have to go with this..
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 Move 9 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . h . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . r . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , s . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . z . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . a . . . . X . y . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: Teamovitch #1

Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:51 pm
by Jedo
I thought this would be a good way to play my first malkovitch, since this way most of the hidden comments would have nothing to do with my moves. Yet I can still relate to the feeling of thinking that observers are making fun of your moves :-?

Some additional comments now that all the black moves are in
I think we've given Joaz 3 good choices to choose from, and I think the fact that they are all pincers are fine since that's what the situation requires. A final defense for my suggestion: I played high and not low because I think that making our splitting stone more resilient against and attack and more power to attack with outweighs playing low to prevent white from making a desperate dive for a base. I pincered the bottom and not the top stone because I think a pincer with a 34 stone is more severe. And I played loose and not tight because I wanted to help exert some pressure against the white stone at the top. Fwiffo makes a good point about not playing half measures, but since the two space high pincer is a very common response regardless of what else is going on, I hope that it is fittingly severe against the stone it pincers.


Edited to remove confusion

Re: Teamovitch #1

Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 3:11 pm
by fwiffo
Black team discussion:
My dislike for high and wide pincers may be mostly a style thing.

My default is to play a tight pincer at the same height as the approach stone (i.e. I'll pincer a high approach stone with a high pincer) to confront it directly. I don't feel right doing something else without a fairly specific reason. A low pincer of a high stone or a high pincer of a low stone allows them to sorta slide off one-another which is a sensation I find uncomfortable.

One specific exception in my pincer preferences is for the high approach to the 3-4 stone. In that case I'll usually do a 2-space high pincer or one-space low pincer, which are both much more common than the one-space high pincer.

Re: Teamovitch #1

Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 3:36 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
:clap: EVERYONE SUGGESTED A PINCER!! :clap:
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

The next few days are busy for me. Due to having three really good suggestions, I may have to wait until I have some time to read a lot. I'll try to post by Friday.

Re: Teamovitch #1

Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 9:36 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
For observers and teammates:

Tewari analysis suggests that there is a problem with the Q8 pincer. White can play the simple, natural extension at 10, and now is threatening to connect under at 'a'. So eventually - indeed probably very soon - we have to play 3:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b 1 3 a . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now this looks too heavy. Once we have to play 3, we would rather have 1 at 'b'. So once we realize that this will be the preferred placement of stones in that area:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...we can see that the first one must be played like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In other words, R8 looks better than Q8.

Re: Teamovitch #1

Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 9:51 pm
by Jedo
Black internal
Joaz makes some good points, but I do have some ideas. If white plays as shown it does not make sense to descend at 3 as in Joaz's diagram, since as he says that is inefficient. Instead we can play like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8 Move 8 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Our last move I think here is pretty powerful and I think it will be hard for white to answer without letting black either get a huge corner or overpowering influence. And to reiterate, my fear of playing low is that white will not play as shown, but will instead do something like the following to attack our splitting stone:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8 Move 8 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 6 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , b . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 4 . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Maybe something like this?
I don't mean to cause internal strife, just trying to give some more explenation about why I chose my move :)

Re: Teamovitch #1

Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 3:02 pm
by tj86430
Joaz Banbeck wrote:I'll try to post by Friday.

I'm fully aware that it's Friday somewhere, but it's Saturday here, and I'm anxious

Re: Teamovitch #1

Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 8:37 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
tj86430 wrote:
Joaz Banbeck wrote:I'll try to post by Friday.

I'm fully aware that it's Friday somewhere, but it's Saturday here, and I'm anxious


Hmmm...did I say that the post would include our move? :lol:

Re: Teamovitch #1

Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 8:58 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
Black internal chat:

Jedo wrote:Maybe something like this?
I don't mean to cause internal strife, just trying to give some more explanation about why I chose my move :)


A discussion of the pros and cons is healthy. Indeed, it is exactly what this form of go was intended to provoke. It serves to enlighten those who are weaker and amuse those who are stronger.


Jedo wrote:Joaz makes some good points, but I do have some ideas. If white plays as shown it does not make sense to descend at 3 as in Joaz's diagram, since as he says that is inefficient. Instead we can play like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8 Move 8 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]




Ok, this does get us some influence, and it avoids the tewari issue in my previous post, but it seems to have lost the crucial character that it had: it fails to put pressure on BOTH groups, which, by my understanding, is the whole point of playing on that side.

We would have three stones attacking one - and it is still not dead - while their R14+R11 group is unperturbed. Then they can play like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8 Their stones are much more efficient.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 7 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ |-------------------------------------[/go]

...or they can play like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8 Q8 is too far away, and they take much of the right side.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ |-------------------------------------[/go]


Jedo wrote:
Our last move I think here is pretty powerful and I think it will be hard for white to answer without letting black either get a huge corner or overpowering influence. And to reiterate, my fear of playing low is that white will not play as shown, but will instead do something like the following to attack our splitting stone:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8 Move 8 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 6 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , b . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 4 . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



I'm not sure that having them attack our stone on that side is a problem ( as long as they can't kill it, of course. ) I thought that we wanted them to fight on the right side of the board; that the primary point of a pincer over there was to make them fight.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8 I'll be happy with this
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 6 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 5 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 4 . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm8 I'll be happy with this also
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 6 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 6 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 9 O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 4 . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

<===== L@@K! My 1000th post!

Re: Teamovitch #1

Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:05 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
Black internal chat:
fwiffo wrote:...My default is to play a tight pincer at the same height as the approach stone (i.e. I'll pincer a high approach stone with a high pincer) to confront it directly. I don't feel right doing something else without a fairly specific reason. A low pincer of a high stone or a high pincer of a low stone allows them to sorta slide off one-another which is a sensation I find uncomfortable...


Again, I really like Fwiffo's line of reasoning. Now let's see what it looks like in practice.

Re: Teamovitch #1

Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:58 pm
by Joaz Banbeck
At 10:00PM Friday, California time:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 9 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


For observers and teammates:
fwiffo wrote:My suggestion for :b9::

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9 Move 9 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , b . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . e . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
...


Again, I like the theory, but the practice has a flaw: the pincer is too close, and allows white to counter-attack like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm9
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 3 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 5 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 6 7 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . @ . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The marked stone is almost perfect position for white.

So I have to go back to the two other pincers. They are further away, and allow the black attack to build without giving white an easy way to counter-attack. For practical reasons mentioned earlier, I like the lower one. And for theoretical reasons, as Fwiffo said, it feels better to match a low stone with a low pincer.

Re: Teamovitch #1

Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:07 pm
by Redundant
Suggestion
Same move as last time. We press black down, and then we counterpincer, which will also be an extension from our previous move.

Re: Teamovitch #1

Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:09 pm
by Chew Terr
Team white discussion:
For now, I'm going to post a few interesting points I'm thinking about. After this, I'll give some of the whys and reasoning, and then later narrow it down to my actual move suggestion. TJ and Red, feel free to raise good and bad things about any of these moves.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 9 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . d . . . . . . . . . c . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . b . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


a: The instant, first thought. The bottom right, pincered stone is probably fine on its own. Not only was the pincer wide, it still has plenty of potential. This settles our top group for the moment (especially as it has a slide in one direction and extra space in the other), and removes the possiblity of a two-space jump from :bc: . The downside is, the development potential on the right is not huge for either side, as both sides are likely to get living groups there.

b: Have I mentioned that I find this joseki pattern interesting? The taisha, if properly executed, seems like it often makes the region small for both players afterwards. Alternatively, it can create a strong group for both sides, as it did in my Malkovich game. The downsides: The marked black stone may make a positive result impossible, and this seems lower priority since the white stone has attachments and such if necessary. Red's move is probably better than this.

c: Changes directions. May give black a chunk of the right side larger than they would get, otherwise, while taking more of the corner or top. This is often a good idea if the top has more potential than the right. As much of the right side is low, this may be the case. 'c' seems to work well with our top left stone, especially if we get the enclosure later. The downsides: Gives white a move like R12, resolving many of their local problems.

d: I like points! Removes a lot of issues in our corner, and makes stuff like 'c' bigger. We could consider taking this enclosure, then playing on the top or right dependent on where black plays. The downside: tenukis from aggression, letting black follow up as harshly as they can find.

While Red's idea seems useful and strong, these are the alternatives I'm considering. I'll post back when I've made up my mind. If this sort of open communication among soldiers is against the spirit of the game, let me know and I'll knock it off. Obviously, Topazg can't sway me on these until I've locked in my vote, or it would just be him playing. =)

Re: Teamovitch #1

Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 1:57 am
by tj86430
My suggestion/white chat:
I like the idea of pressing black down and then counterpincering. Since that has already been suggested I'd like to steal Chew's a) (R11) as my suggestion, since I think creating a base for our own group while applying some pressure to black R8 is very important. I can not comment on the taisha, since my knowledge of it is so poor. Of other suggestions by Chew I like d) better than c), but I have no problem with either - other than that I feel dealing with the right side is more urgent.

Re: Teamovitch #1

Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 7:53 am
by topazg
For the team:

Nice thoughts, it's looking good. However, I'd really like to see some more continuations. Firstly:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 Move 10 other options
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . c . X d . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


These are also very typical in this sort of shape. Can we all have a look at those before deciding on our final choices :)

Also, before I accept the press, please can we have a continuation after this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm10 Move 10 press continuation
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 3 1 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . 4 . 2 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The reason I ask, is we are sooo thin in the lower right that this could get very sticky. It's possible y'all have a fun spicy plan to handle it, but I can't see one of the top of my head. I want thoughts and global plans if possible :)
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