Page 7 of 14

Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:37 pm
by EdLee
@topazg:
topazg wrote:You have very definitive opinions for a 4k.
Let the stones do the talking. :) I am super slow;
I drop 2-3 stones at "mickey mouse" tournament time controls. :-?

Re:

Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:59 pm
by topazg
EdLee wrote:@topazg:
topazg wrote:You have very definitive opinions for a 4k.
Let the stones do the talking. :) I am super slow;
I drop 2-3 stones at "mickey mouse" tournament time controls. :-?


That still makes 1-2k ... I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just very aware that even as a dan player, my precision in variations is really spectacular poor compared to professional play. I have spotted a number of things on your variations that you seem to have missed, and disagree with your conclusions on some others (though going through to the nth iteration with further disagreements on here seems fruitless outside of the game in question), and I'm sure a high dan would do the same to me, and a pro would do the same to them.

It seems only appropriate to have some humility with ideas and variations, and your constant "sorry, you're wrong and I'm right, and this is why" is kind of getting to me. Perhaps I shouldn't let it, but particularly in an educational context, I don't see false certainty as particularly constructive. It's something I've always admired about Bill, who not only puts forward really good variations and ideas, but does it in an impressively humble manner for someone so strong.

EDIT: Having calmed down a bit, I also want to stress that I do value your thoughts, ideas, and variations. Even when I disagree, it's really good having as much input as possible :)

Re: 99. topazg vs sevis

Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:18 pm
by Magicwand
topazg:
:b9: appears to be correct. your knight move is completely wrong. it is like.."exit is this way. please go out and save yourself" move.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . X . , . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 4 O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X 1 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O O 2 . 6 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 99. topazg vs sevis

Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:29 pm
by topazg
@magicwand:

I apologise, I obviously wasn't very clear. I wasn't suggesting the knight's move as the way that Black should play, just that it is a more common shape, and that I believe the alternative suggested by Ed to be too thin. For what it is worth, my reading was:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black's walls seem too close to me
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . X . , . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 4 . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X 5 3 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . B B B B B . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O O O . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc White seems ok here as well?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . X . , . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 7 4 . 2 8 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 X 6 3 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . B B B B B . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O O O . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc White seems ok here as well?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . X . , . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 0 X 9 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 4 5 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 X 7 3 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O O O . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I couldn't find anything that great for :b3: on the other side either:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc White seems ok here as well?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . X . , . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 0 X 9 7 . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 X 3 4 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O 5 . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O O O . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 99. topazg vs sevis

Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:41 pm
by Magicwand
toapzg:
in my opinion your reading is limited to cutting.
i can think of many different way to answer :b1: that is better than your variation and is good for black.
i am not going to say Ed's move is correct but it appears to be correct.
imo it is not thin. it is very solid (in different persepective).
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . X . , . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O O O . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . X . , . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O O O . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . O . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . X . , . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . 2 , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X X X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O O O . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 99. topazg vs sevis

Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:45 pm
by topazg
@MW:

Magicwand wrote:toapzg:
in my opinion your reading is limited to cutting.
i can think of many different way to answer :b1: that is better than your variation and is good for black.
i am not going to say Ed's move is correct but it appears to be correct.
imo it is not thin. it is very solid (in different persepective).


My reading above was a response to Ed's suggestion of a cut, hence its focus around cutting. I agree with you, I don't think Black should cut either.

Re: 99. topazg vs sevis

Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:51 pm
by Magicwand
topazg:
i am sorry for trying to lecture you while you are strong as me.
your reading is probably better than mine :)

Re: 99. topazg vs sevis

Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:57 pm
by topazg
Magicwand wrote:topazg:
i am sorry for trying to lecture you while you are strong as me.
your reading is probably better than mine :)


Hehe, one day I hope that might be true, you are definitely a stronger player than I am :)

I'd happily trade my skills for yours in a situation like this one, this is the kind of position where you end up killing things from nowhere!

Re: 99. topazg vs sevis

Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 7:33 pm
by Sevis
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . X O X X . . X . , . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O O . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think this is a fairly decent move. Saving that one stone doesn't look worth it, and with this, I'm getting some influence, putting much more pressure on the white group, and messing up white's plan. I'm expecting an attack on the left as white attempts to make some eyespace, or an expansion to the right as white tries to expand his territory. Although, is `try' the right word when success is guaranteed?

Re: 99. topazg vs sevis

Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:21 am
by Puppycakes
I thought Ed Lee was 3d or 4d.

Re: 99. topazg vs sevis

Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 1:43 am
by topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . X O X X . . X . , . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O O . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Settle first, then I can look after the bottom. I'm pretty happy with this, though it _is_ an interesting idea for Black

Re: 99. topazg vs sevis

Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 9:11 am
by Puppycakes
I think I'd prefer it as white if black chose to play this way. I think that the other line does a lot to solidify him on and should make that side likely territory while white isn't completely settled yet.

Also, I'm surprised that neither of their analysis has discussed the idea of taking the 3-3 point. In my mind, the topaz has avoided the point because black would get to weaken whichever side they blocked against. Black has been separating white, but at some point, I think that black should consider taking it.

Re: 99. topazg vs sevis

Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 10:53 am
by unkx80
Comment open to all.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . X O X X . . X . , . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a 1 X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O O . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Why doesn't White play like this? Or even :w3: at a.

Re: 99. topazg vs sevis

Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 11:22 am
by Sevis
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . X O X X . . X . , . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O O . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I think white will extend to the left, and then I'll have to block on one side or the other... Blocking on the top would solidify that area, but blocking on the bottom would help me secure that... Perhaps B5 would be good, or B4. B4 seems too small, though...

Re: 99. topazg vs sevis

Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:05 pm
by topazg
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm31 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . X O X X . . X . , . . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 4 X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . O O . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Playing for completely alive here, so I can focus on the bottom properly.