Page 7 of 11

Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:56 pm
by pancake
Hmmm, nice move. But I still think he should continue on the bottom after the exchange. So my first thought would be to play a. I think reducing around b is slow and small. c is also still big.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . a . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Let's examine a.. If black responds at a instead of 2, it's a good exchange and I will play on the left. So the only option would be like this. It looks really hard, but let's look at a few possibilities.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . 4 1 . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . 3 2 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . a . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


This is more or less a one way street, and it doesn't look good for me. I should play at a to connect, so he'll make his group facing the center safe.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X 8 6 X O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . 7 5 O X 1 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . a . . 4 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


This looks promising. If 2 at a, 3 b 5. If he cuts at c, I can squeeze on the outside, make him capture my 2 stones and his 2 marked stones will be as good as dead.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 b . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . Y . 3 X O a , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O Y . . c O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . 1 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


But he can play like this instead, which is very bad for me :(.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . 2 X O 4 , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . O X 3 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . 1 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


So this is the only option for me, I think.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . 7 . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 8 9 . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . 1 X O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . 4 O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . 6 5 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Black 8 is overplay, since after a, he doesn't have the ladder at b. (4 at the marked stone)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . b O 3 O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X X 1 . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X a O X Q 2 , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X 8 5 X O X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . 7 6 X O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


So I guess I can play the keima I want to play!

Ah, by the way, if he tenukis:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . 5 . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . 1 . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . 3 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

EEEExcelent for me.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . W . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


No problem, I suppose you had a valid reason ;)

Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:05 pm
by Loons
Thanks. Hopefully I'll come up with a move by tomorrow.
The game is afoot!

Boring as it may be, a rough sgf of my immediate thoughts. This move is nicer than the third line move I think I suggested earlier.



One day I will read the post on how to upload SGFs.

Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 4:17 pm
by Loons
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm43 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . W . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Well, my logic is as follows; a contact play here will strengthen my corner and white's outside. All my corner really wants is a little more eyespace. So, I'll take my eyespace, white can worry about being strong outside.

Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 3:16 pm
by pancake
Sorry I'm being slow now, didn't have much time yet. And the situation requires some reading!

Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:10 am
by pancake
I was thinking about the cuts at a and b. For the cut at a I need some preparation like the c-d exchange, but the cut doesn't seem promising to me. The cut for him on the lower side is fightable for me, plus he responded like a good submissive little boy already, so it shouldn't be too big. That's why I'll stick to my original plan of playing e.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm43 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d c . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X a . . . |
$$ | . . e . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm43 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 2:59 pm
by Loons
Reading, reading... :study:
Well, that stone is on a clearly nice spot, and I would now like to get A2 for my group's happiness and wellbeing. Eventually.

I have played a lot of moves around the marked white group, and need to look for the best followup. Maybe I can start at X? Where am I going with that, though?

On the left, I quite want to keep developing my moyo by playing some or all of the lettered sequence.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm45 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . b a . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . f d e . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O c . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . g . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . P . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . x . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . P . P . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . P . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Edit:
This is the result I need.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm45 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O Y . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O O Y . . . . . . . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . O Y . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . Y . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . # . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O # . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ {AR P8 N10}[/go]

I need to build influence in the direction of the arrow in sente in a way that reinforces the circled stones and avoids damaging the squared stones, then take gote playing the triangled stones.

Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 6:51 pm
by Loons
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm45 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

"The standard probe".
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . b O . . |
$$ . . . a . . . |
$$ . . . 1 2 x . |
$$ . . O c O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . O . , X . . |
$$ . . . X . . . |
$$ . X . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------+[/go]
I am expecting :w2: because of the weakness at x, and afterwards I think I will look further into a, b and c. B was my first thought but appears rare on my database, which is strange because I could swear I remember seeing it all the time in pro games. I do want sente to play the sequence I mentioned on the left.

Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 2:43 pm
by pancake
Sorry for being really slow. I had a busy week. This weekend was the preliminary tournament for the Dutch championships. I can proudly say I qualified ;). Anyway, that's why I didn't have anytime for this game.. I will play a move tomorrow!

Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:43 pm
by pancake
Posts will be more regular now! (once everyday)
I obviously cannot ignore this move, so I'll just talk about what will happen if I respond here.
I think he's aiming at something like this if I answer on the side:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . a O 4 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O b . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
"
I think it's not too big, but the bend at a feels nice for him afterwards, followed up by b.

If I just answer the peep, probably this will be the followup, he'll probably play it immediately. I will play something like a, to reinforce the shape later.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . Y . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . a . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 1 5 . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O 2 O 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

This is annoying, because he can connect to the marked stone now. Before there was some cutting aji. So let's go back to the first diagram and look at my followup from there.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 3 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . 2 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X 5 . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . 6 4 . . . . . . . . e d 1 X . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X b . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . 8 c . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O a . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I first want to exchange things in the lower left. There are a lot of details on this sequence, black might give more resistance, but it will end bad for him. Then I want to strike at what seems to be the vital spot with 8. If he plays a, I'll play b. If he plays b, I will play c, a and d will be miai. At least that was my first thought. If he plays a, then he can clamp my move d at e. It's not that easy to read out, but I think I won't get a good result.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d c . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X e . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . g f X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 3 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . 2 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X 5 . . . . . . . . . . O O O . . |
$$ | . 6 4 . . . . . . . . a . 1 X . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . b . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

After counting, I think I can win if I just play calmly, so my 8 should be here to reinforce my group and threaten something on his lower side. If he reinforces at let's say a, then b makes it very small. with 8 I also aim at something like c-d-e-f-g. So this should be good for me. :D

Ofcourse there's also the possibility of him just tenuki'ing after I respond at the side. I think cutting will not be good for him:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . c O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a 1 2 . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O 3 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 5 . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . O . 6 X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X e . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

It looks like my 2 groups can fight separately. pushing at a might be sente, but makes me stronger. I will answer b at c. Because there is so much aji at e, I think it won't be hard for me to live.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm45 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X W . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 3:21 pm
by Loons
Excellent, excellent. I can't promise I'll necessarily post a move every single day myself, though.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm47 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X W . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

A hitherto silent part of brain spoke up and announced that now was the time to tenuki (and gave what I felt was a very persuasive arguement).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm47 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . 6 4 5 . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . c O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Z W . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O a O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . # . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O # . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
  "Saving" the crossed stone seems very likely to give me good influence in gote, also in exchange for making the white group very strong.

  If I'm going to take good influence in gote anyway, I can do it over here. But wait, there's more! By leaving my crossed stone, if/when white aggressively reduces my moyo or attacks the squared stones, he has the bad aji at 'a' for me to aim at. (This sounds a lot better than my normal plan for when white aggressively reduces my moyo:
Image
)

NB: I also did previously describe 45 as a "probe" which implies I have no strong commitment to *immediately* following it up locally.

PS: Linked image was from a random google image search, hopefully it hangs around.

PPS: 'a' directly may have been severe, but it's a scary and difficult fighting move, and I don't see that as necessary.

Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:30 am
by pancake
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm47 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . W X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

no explanation necessary

Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:24 am
by Loons
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm49 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . W X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

While I am very leery of making "automatic" moves pursuant to ez4u's warning, I feel like continuing here is important for helping my bottom left group.

One thing I am not entirely happy with this game- I felt like I was doing well in the first few moves, however white gained tonnes of territory, and the game now has an equal/polarised feeling where white has tonnes and tonnes of solid territory while black has tonnes of moyo (and cash is theoretically safer than moyo promises).

Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:19 pm
by emerus
both players:

Have you counted recently? If so, who do you think has the advantage?

How do you think the game will go in the next dozen moves or so?

Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:59 pm
by Loons
My reckoning is/was: Black has a small territory on the left, a territory in the bottom right and a large moyo.

Conversely white seems to have about 52 points of territory and some prospects at gaining more points on bottom and right.

More fine reckoning:
If we say black's two territories are worth a bit over 15 points, Black's moyo must be worth 35-40 points more than what white gains in the rest of the game. This sounds like a lot, but really the top part of that moyo is essentially territory, so my impression is: black has significant potential, white is about 15 points up on the board.

Rather than being about winning or losing right now, I will simply ask from my moyo the number of points required to win: If this is too much, I will lose.

Edit: Right how it will go:

With sente, white will play a reduction that doubles as a large scale attack on K4 stones. Black will resist with his thickness and some weakness in white's bottom right group.

Re: 138. Pancake 4d vs Loons 1d

Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 3:29 am
by pancake
I didn't get a notification you played a move already, so there goes my promise of making a move every day ;).
I think I have 3 choices here. a,b and possibly tenuki. Emerus: I counted last time, but I forgot, so I will count again before deciding which move to play.
BLACK:
lower left: 8
lower right: 13
upper side: 28 solid, but it will probably be 10-15 points bigger at least. So I'll count 15 extra here.
total: 64
WHITE:
upper left: 21
upper right: 12
lower left: 13
right side: ~6
TOTAL: ~52 + komi, 58.5
So in my opinion I'm still behind. As I was from the start. I should try an active approach now to gain territory and reduce his.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . a , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I think move a is really vulgar, this is what would happen
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . 6 7 . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 8 9 . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 2 4 5 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Doesn't look good for me


Option b is the most standard reply:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . 4 2 3 . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


But I feel like this is helping him.

So if those two possibilities suck, where should I play then? I should keep in mind that if I tenuki, a would be sente for him. I feel like playing b, but my group on the right doesn't look very thick yet. Yet I think I have to take some risk here, since I'm behind. By the way, I don't know if b is the best point. The only way I can choose a good reducing move in this kind of situation is by intuition. Sometimes that ends in utter failure, sometimes it just happens to be good.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . b . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 black: 1 white: 0
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . O . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X . . X . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . W . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . X . . . O . , X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]