Page 7 of 20

Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 9:01 am
by daniel_the_smith
Grr, I knew it. I wonder what Jordus will play...

Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 12:01 pm
by Jordus
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm65 Move 65 Prisoners White 0 Black 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X O X O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . O X O . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , X . X X O . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Same thing going on here as in my last move. Gotta protect the corner. points... etc...

Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 12:21 pm
by daniel_the_smith
Groan. Would have greatly preferred to see S13. S14 would have been better. This gives up a stone that I think we need to hang on to. Jordus is probably thinking too much about the corner territory.

Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 12:24 pm
by topazg
Wow, this could get devastating quickly:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm65 Continuation?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . X 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X O X O X O X 3 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . 5 4 0 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X 7 8 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . O X O . O 6 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , X . X X O . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm75 Continuation?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O O . O O X 4 |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X O X O X O X X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . X . . O X . 3 |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . O . X 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . X 1 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . X O O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X X O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . O X O . O O 2 |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , X . X X O 8 7 X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . O X X 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 1:26 pm
by Dusk Eagle
For topazg:
As if.

Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 1:34 pm
by topazg
For Dusk Eagle:

Hahaha, can't stop a guy from dreaming :lol:

The purpose of such a sequence is really demonstrate the potential depth of the aji. In this rengo game it's never going to play out like that, but it demonstrates I think that 66 is probably the only move. It's fairly big in itself, it threatens to capture further (though small), it threatens to kill with a tenuki, and it clearly completely settled White.

Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 5:09 pm
by Phelan
Move tomorrow, want to think about this with a clear head.
I'll probably cut here. I think Jordus is expecting the atari below :w66: but that seems to allow black to still take sente, and seems not to leave any aji left for a corner invasion.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm65 Move 65 Prisoners White 0 Black 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . O 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X O X O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . O X O . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , X . X X O . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Posted: Fri May 07, 2010 7:51 am
by Phelan
Oops, forgot about it. :oops:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm66 Move 66 Prisoners White 0 Black 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . O 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X O X O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . O X O . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , X . X X O . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I see no other worthwile move here.

This is what I didn't like about the atari:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm66 Don't atari automatically.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . O 4 O 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . 5 X 1 3 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X O X O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . O X O . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , X . X X O . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The descent still leaves some aji for black, but I prefer it this way:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm66 Followup to the descent?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . O 5 O 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . 3 X 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X O X O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . O X O . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , X . X X O . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If black simply pulls up:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm66 Move 66 Prisoners White 0 Black 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . b a . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . O 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X O X O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . X . c . . . . . X . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . O X O . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , X . X X O . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

a or b still seem possible places to invade.
Unrelatedly, I still want white to play around c first. :-?

Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Posted: Fri May 07, 2010 8:32 am
by daniel_the_smith
I'm pretty sure Violence will play S13. I bet magicwand will then play r16 (it's a mean dan-player sort of move).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm66 Move 66 Prisoners White 0 Black 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . X . X 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . O 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . X 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X O X O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . O X O . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , X . X X O . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


...and then I don't see a good move for black :(

Maybe I'll ignore the corner and play Q13.

EDIT: after more reading, I don't think :w68: above works, phew.

Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Posted: Fri May 07, 2010 10:58 pm
by Violence
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm67 Move 67 Prisoners White 0 Black 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . X 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X O X O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . O X O . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , X . X X O . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Got any better ideas? I don't.

Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Posted: Sat May 08, 2010 3:52 am
by Magicwand
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm68 Move 68 Prisoners White 0 Black 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . W X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X O X O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . O X O . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , X . X X O . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

i whis our weakest link plays absolute sente to kill opponents strongest link.
then we will win easily for sure...:)

Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Posted: Sat May 08, 2010 5:07 am
by Phelan
Something I hadn't noticed before:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm69 Black group can now be attacked
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X O X O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . X . a . . . . . X . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . O X O . O 2 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , X . X X O . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black's Right side group now has some vulnerability, and can be pressed. Maybe this cut is not the best way, but there's some aji there.
I still want white to move first in the a area, I think whoever moves there first could decide the game.
This is because I think white is slightly ahead now that the group is alive. I'll make a post later with my estimate of the game. I'd appreciate it if some observers also do the same, so I have a basis for comparison when the game finishes.

Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Posted: Sat May 08, 2010 7:46 pm
by daniel_the_smith
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm69 Move 69 Prisoners White 0 Black 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . 1 . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X O X O X O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . O X O . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , X . X X O . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It really feels like we have a lot of weaknesses. I don't really like our position. I almost played at a below because I wasn't sure we could live if the shown sequence occurred, but after some reading I'm 98% sure we can. I'd like to harass the white group some more but it would start to look like an attempt to kill and I think that would backfire as we have too many weaknesses. I was going to play at :b69: below but I decided that the move I played helps with our weakness in the corner, takes some points on the top, prevents white from getting that point, and it keeps the possibility open of trying for a kill later.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm69 Move 69 Prisoners White 0 Black 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . O . . O . O O a |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O X X 2 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X O X O X O X . 3 |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . X . . O X . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . 5 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O . X 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . O X O . O 6 . |
$$ | . . . O . 1 . . . , X . X X O . . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I kinda think black must have made mistakes to get in this position. I wonder if they were mine...?

Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Posted: Sat May 08, 2010 8:07 pm
by Magicwand
this game is crazy!!!
i think we are ahead but barely.
and from what i saw sofar...no one knows what will happen next 3 moves later.
i will just play my thing and not worry about winning.

Re: 3v3 Malkovitch Rengo #1

Posted: Sat May 08, 2010 8:26 pm
by daniel_the_smith
Magicwand is probably saying something about how easy it will be to get into our corner now or how our side group should die. :( Hope I didn't miss something obvious...