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Re: Is it possible to play Go without strategy?
Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:50 am
by SmoothOper
Phelan wrote: Go. I might not like it, and you might not like it, and I might prefer other tools like visualization and shape, but without reading, we'll never play as well as we could.
Speak for yourself, I do my problems, but what you said about memorizing Joseki and pattern matching is still true. I however, don't see the point in doing problems, many of which don't make sense out of context of a decent strategy or shape, which I stated as such in the start of the thread.
Re: Is it possible to play Go without strategy?
Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:00 am
by skydyr
SmoothOper wrote:Phelan wrote: Go. I might not like it, and you might not like it, and I might prefer other tools like visualization and shape, but without reading, we'll never play as well as we could.
Speak for yourself, I do my problems, but what you said about memorizing Joseki and pattern matching is still true. I however, don't see the point in doing problems, many of which don't make sense out of context of a decent strategy or shape, which I stated as such in the start of the thread.
If you don't feel like doing them because you don't see the point, then don't do them. No one is holding a gun to your head. But if you feel like you're stuck at a level, and everyone tells you 'this is the way to get stronger' and you don't do it, don't blame them either if you don't improve.
Re: Is it possible to play Go without strategy?
Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:04 am
by mlund
Effective Tactics in Go require reading - either on the spot or memorization ahead of time. A Tactic designed ahead of time is still not a Strategy.
Choosing whether or not to apply one tactic or another may cross the line in Strategy, though. Certainly if you want to win at Go you need to make informed decisions about what Tactics to apply, so there's always some Strategy at play. How deep one's Strategy can grow and have any relevant impact on the game, however, is usually a matter of the reading ability of one or both players.
Strategies that your opponent can defeat due to a disparity in Tactics fail, and this is almost entirely a function of reading.
Some Strategies require more complicated Tactics to execute successfully than others.
Plenty of well-executed Tactics can lose you the game due to poor Strategy in choosing where and when to apply them. (Come out ahead locally at the expense of falling behind globally)
- Marty Lund
Re: Is it possible to play Go without strategy?
Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:12 am
by xed_over
SmoothOper wrote: I however, don't see the point in doing problems, many of which don't make sense out of context of a decent strategy or shape, which I stated as such in the start of the thread.
why can't kyu players change a lightblub?
because they can't see the ladder.
Re: Is it possible to play Go without strategy?
Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:32 am
by Phelan
billywoods wrote:Phelan wrote:I have little patience for doing tsumego at the moment.
You and me both.
And everyone else, ever.
Funny, but untrue. I've read reports, in this forum, of people that like to do problems, even more than playing Go. I think I remember some that didn't even play Go at all and just liked the problems.
I know, right?
Re: Is it possible to play Go without strategy?
Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:32 am
by daal
SmoothOper wrote:Phelan wrote: Go. I might not like it, and you might not like it, and I might prefer other tools like visualization and shape, but without reading, we'll never play as well as we could.
Speak for yourself, I do my problems, but what you said about memorizing Joseki and pattern matching is still true. I however, don't see the point in doing problems, many of which don't make sense out of context of a decent strategy or shape, which I stated as such in the start of the thread.
You do problems even though you don't see the point? Why bother?
I think I know what you mean though about problems lacking a context. You might be asked to cut black for example, but so what? Cutting isn't to be done for it's own sake, but rather in order to carry out a plan. This plan (maybe a better word here than "strategy") doesn't exist in the problem, which might make it's value seem negligible.
In a game, one's plan might involve cutting off part of an opponent's group or getting thick in sente or escaping with a weak group or whatever. Having previously done some tesuji problems dealing with these sorts of situations could prove helpful in a number of ways. It might save time if you happen to remember a particular tesuji, it might give you a starting place to start reading if your plan is feasible, it might make you aware of a trick your opponent may have up his sleeve.
While you may be right that it is rare in a game to encounter a specific problem that you've done, I think it's still valuable to have some practice with similar situations. The game is the context.
Re: Is it possible to play Go without strategy?
Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 2:57 pm
by billywoods
SmoothOper wrote:problems, many of which don't make sense out of context of a decent strategy or shape
- The point of doing problems is to practise your reading in general, not to make you better at the specific problems you solve.
- If you wish to get better at go in general, you will encounter many, many different strategies and shapes in your life. You cannot refuse to prepare for some because you think they're rare or weird. They, or parts of them, will come up.
Re: Is it possible to play Go without strategy?
Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:09 pm
by SmoothOper
billywoods wrote:SmoothOper wrote:problems, many of which don't make sense out of context of a decent strategy or shape
- The point of doing problems is to practise your reading in general, not to make you better at the specific problems you solve.
- If you wish to get better at go in general, you will encounter many, many different strategies and shapes in your life. You cannot refuse to prepare for some because you think they're rare or weird. They, or parts of them, will come up.
I just think that the solutions to some problems aren't consistent with certain strategies. For example two strategies one emphasizing lightness and flexibility and another thickness and influence will have different tesuji and it isn't a good idea to mix the two, they are incompatible, hence it isn't a good idea to study both tesuji.
Re: Is it possible to play Go without strategy?
Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:17 pm
by hyperpape
Can you give any example of that? It strikes me as probably false, though it would be cool if there was an example.
Re: Is it possible to play Go without strategy?
Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:57 pm
by lightvector
SmoothOper wrote:I just think that the solutions to some problems aren't consistent with certain strategies. For example two strategies one emphasizing lightness and flexibility and another thickness and influence will have different tesuji and it isn't a good idea to mix the two, they are incompatible, hence it isn't a good idea to study both tesuji.
I'm curious - do you plan to play both against opponents who use strategies that emphasize lightness and flexibility and against opponents who emphasize thickness and influence, who might use tesuji that you haven't studied against you?
How do you prevent opponents who have studied tesuji that you haven't from catching you unaware and using them against you to great effect? Do you study them at least enough to recognize the situations where they might be useful and try to avoid or defend against them? And if you try to avoid and defend against them, without detailed study on precisely when one of these tesuji can be effective, how do you avoid wasting moves defending when you don't actually need to?
Or do you think that you can control the game to such a degree that the opponent's strategy mostly doesn't matter, so that the tesuji that the opponent has studied and that you haven't studied aren't relevant? If so, how do you stop your opponent from doing the same to you, and making the tesuji he's studied relevant and your tesujis irrelevant?
Or maybe you do something else besides either of these?
Re: Is it possible to play Go without strategy?
Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:31 pm
by SmoothOper
lightvector wrote:and making the tesuji he's studied relevant and your tesujis irrelevant?
So yeah like competing strategies and stuff.
Re: Is it possible to play Go without strategy?
Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:54 am
by Phelan
Yuc4h wrote:The level of your reading is simply the factor that defines probably around 90% of your playing strength. I made the mistake of studying high level strategy, fuseki, etc. from books at around 5k and I think it was a waste of time. The almost the only books needed until maybe kgs 3d are problem books. It really doesn't matter what you do strategically if your opponent has stronger reading skills than you. Your frameworks will be paper and it will be difficult for you to survive the whole game without making a blunder.
The way I see it is it seems some people in this thread are just trying to justify to themselves that they don't need practice reading for it is hard work. Sure, it's nice and relaxed to read a strategy book compared to wrestling with tsumego, but it's also mostly useless.
I think I missed this post the first time around. Well, I believe that fun isn't useless. It depends on if you're focused on improving your game, or enjoying the game.
My favorite Go book so far has to be The Treasure Chest Enigma(by Nakayama Noriyuki), although the content it has that would help you improve isn't much compared to other books. It's just such a fun and enjoyable book, that I can't help but smile when I think of it. It's a pity there aren't more like it in the market(that I know of).
Re: Is it possible to play Go without strategy?
Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:00 pm
by Yuc4h
Phelan wrote:I think I missed this post the first time around. Well, I believe that fun isn't useless. It depends on if you're focused on improving your game, or enjoying the game.
My favorite Go book so far has to be The Treasure Chest Enigma(by Nakayama Noriyuki), although the content it has that would help you improve isn't much compared to other books. It's just such a fun and enjoyable book, that I can't help but smile when I think of it. It's a pity there aren't more like it in the market(that I know of).
I totally agree. The book I have enjoyed the most up to date was the infamous yellow book by Kageyama. However, there is difference between having fun and improving. When we are talking about go, luckily the two are mostly overlapping usually. I was stuck at the ~2k kgs barrier for a year or so. I was having fun playing and watching some teaching videos etc, but it turned out that I couldn't gain solid improvement without actually deciding to improve. And now, not long after, I'm the crappiest of dan players
I think that all dan players (probably excluding those that gained their rank through years and years of playing) can confirm that in order to break away from the kyu ranks you have to actually decide to be willing to walk the distance and not just loiter around
Re: Is it possible to play Go without strategy?
Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:22 pm
by Phelan
Yuc4h wrote:Phelan wrote:I think I missed this post the first time around. Well, I believe that fun isn't useless. It depends on if you're focused on improving your game, or enjoying the game.
My favorite Go book so far has to be The Treasure Chest Enigma(by Nakayama Noriyuki), although the content it has that would help you improve isn't much compared to other books. It's just such a fun and enjoyable book, that I can't help but smile when I think of it. It's a pity there aren't more like it in the market(that I know of).
I totally agree. The book I have enjoyed the most up to date was the infamous yellow book by Kageyama. However, there is difference between having fun and improving. When we are talking about go, luckily the two are mostly overlapping usually. I was stuck at the ~2k kgs barrier for a year or so. I was having fun playing and watching some teaching videos etc, but it turned out that I couldn't gain solid improvement without actually deciding to improve. And now, not long after, I'm the crappiest of dan players
I think that all dan players (probably excluding those that gained their rank through years and years of playing) can confirm that in order to break away from the kyu ranks you have to actually decide to be willing to walk the distance and not just loiter around
Yeah, I know that a lot of people feel the same way with Kageyama's Lessons in the Fundamentals. That one is still an Improving book, in my opinion, since it deals with improving your mentality towards Go.
I personally didn't take much from it, though.
Re: Is it possible to play Go without strategy?
Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:06 pm
by billywoods
SmoothOper wrote:two strategies one emphasizing lightness and flexibility and another thickness and influence will have different tesuji and it isn't a good idea to mix the two
Right, but your strategy will differ from one game to the next. You don't just pick a strategy before the game starts and run with it no matter what your opponent's doing. That's stupid. Sometimes you need to play lightly, sometimes you need to take influence. It's not a good idea to mix the two in the same sequence, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't know both.