Life In 19x19

I checked this out a while back when it wasn't very feature rich, and I have to say, it's improved leaps and bounds - color me impressed! You guys have done really, really well here and I much prefer this to KGS, Tygem and IGS in terms of usability, interface and features.

In particular, I was impressed that I could log on with my 7" android tablet and play comfortably through the browser - there's a nice responsive design in parts where it's needed.

Of course the main challenge as we all know is building a player base. All I can offer is to spend more time on the server playing games and helping newcomers, in the hope that over the coming years your reputation will build. Very best of luck!

Oh, and regarding the landing page after logging in - I too am not really interested in board displays of my recently played games, I'd would *much* rather see a list of all the open challenges, then followed by games in progress.

The important question is, however - WHY is nobody playing real-time games on Nova?

Even on Kaya there were RT games minutes within its opening, and all the way until it closed. On KGS when it was created there were RT games going on immediately after it got announced, from what I remember. Same with NNGS, and other servers I am aware of, always. Even if it took a long time to build a solid user base, there were always SOME RT games going.

I have not seen a single RT game on Nova yet. Which does not mean there are none, but they are visibly less than on any other server. I am logging it about every other day or so.

Anyhow - once you answer this question - fix it and Nova might soar.

PS>
My personal hypothesis: You made the server really convenient for NRT games, which are going on all the time. When I log in, I see them. Maybe people are put off, they think: "oh, another NRT server, sweet, I go back to KGS." This is how I feel, very strongly, even thought I know better. And often I log out even without bothering to check the chat and see who is there.

So, if the above is part of the problem, my advice is as follows:

On the landing page, do not display the games in progress so prominently (it will not be practical anyway once you have hundreds of games going) - and certainly don't show the positions and the timing. I know its a cool feature, but still... I think this might do more harm than good. Instead, maybe do some tabs or something, like 'Challenges', 'Your Games', 'RT Games', 'NRT Games' - with the 'Challenges' being the default active tab. You can do the Challenges graphically (as they are now, very nice) and also as a list like other servers - people like to see familiar stuff.

Another issue is finding people. The 'Chat' link you have is not very prominent, nor intuitive to use. A newcomer, when logging in to Nova, gets the impression it is deserted, nobody there, only a few NRT games going. Bring the people and the chat to the forefront, maybe as the fifth tab on the landing page, and make it a default tab? Or just make the chat and channels to be the default landing panel.

Overall, I think one of the problems Nova has is the interface. It works well, but the design is austere and functionality is unusual. If nothing else, make the important parts of the interface more prominent.

There are many real time games going on nova on a daily basis. Especially during the evening in the US/night in Europe, when most people seem to be online at the same time.
Right now there are 2 real time challenges open (one 5k and one 5d) and they were opened in the last minute. Of course, given the player base, you can't expect to open a challenge and find a player in 30 seconds. Create your game, join the chat, announce your game if necessary and wait 15 minutes. I will be VERY surprised if you don't find anyone willing to play.

(There are 82 users online right now, and the number has been steadily growing for the past months)

uPWarrior wrote:There are many real time games going on nova on a daily basis. Especially during the evening in the US/night in Europe, when most people seem to be online at the same time.
Right now there are 2 real time challenges open (one 5k and one 5d) and they were opened in the last minute. Of course, given the player base, you can't expect to open a challenge and find a player in 30 seconds. Create your game, join the chat, announce your game if necessary and wait 15 minutes. I will be VERY surprised if you don't find anyone willing to play.

(There are 82 users online right now, and the number has been steadily growing for the past months)

Great news. No need to change anything then. Rock on.

I agree with Bantari that the interface tends to be the weak point. The reason why many servers work is that is what people want, one screen with some chat, open challenges, and current real time games in one place. As it is, it always currently looks a bit odd to me.

Also, I suggest getting bots online to aid in getting real time games going quicker. Kaya had many real time games that were against bots. It's not a replacement for people vs people games, but it lets people try things out quicker.

Bantari wrote:

uPWarrior wrote:There are many real time games going on nova on a daily basis. Especially during the evening in the US/night in Europe, when most people seem to be online at the same time.
Right now there are 2 real time challenges open (one 5k and one 5d) and they were opened in the last minute. Of course, given the player base, you can't expect to open a challenge and find a player in 30 seconds. Create your game, join the chat, announce your game if necessary and wait 15 minutes. I will be VERY surprised if you don't find anyone willing to play.

(There are 82 users online right now, and the number has been steadily growing for the past months)

Great news. No need to change anything then. Rock on.

Well, I should probably add that I agree with some of your suggestions. I think Oren's idea would be a great improvement as well.

Bantari wrote:On the landing page, do not display the games in progress so prominently (it will not be practical anyway once you have hundreds of games going) - and certainly don't show the positions and the timing. I know its a cool feature, but still... I think this might do more harm than good. Instead, maybe do some tabs or something, like 'Challenges', 'Your Games', 'RT Games', 'NRT Games' - with the 'Challenges' being the default active tab. You can do the Challenges graphically (as they are now, very nice) and also as a list like other servers - people like to see familiar stuff.

Another issue is finding people. The 'Chat' link you have is not very prominent, nor intuitive to use. A newcomer, when logging in to Nova, gets the impression it is deserted, nobody there, only a few NRT games going. Bring the people and the chat to the forefront, maybe as the fifth tab on the landing page, and make it a default tab? Or just make the chat and channels to be the default landing panel.

Overall, I think one of the problems Nova has is the interface. It works well, but the design is austere and functionality is unusual. If nothing else, make the important parts of the interface more prominent.

That's some great feedback. We've been talking a lot about changing the main page pretty much for all the reasons you've brought up, and I think you're spot on about bringing the seek graph/challenge interface to the foreground instead of active games. We certainly do need to find a better solution for making the chat more prominent, we may very well make an option to stick that on the landing page too, we'll see.. we've got some ideas floating around to attempt to appeal to both the crowd that really wants that, and the crowd that really doesn't.

oren wrote:Also, I suggest getting bots online to aid in getting real time games going quicker.

Yep, bots are certainly still on the list, we'll get them in

anoek wrote:[..] you're spot on about bringing the seek graph/challenge interface to the foreground instead of active games.

Oh, please not simply “instead”. Running RT games should immediately be visible.

We certainly do need to find a better solution for making the chat more prominent, we may very well make an option to stick that on the landing page too, we'll see.. we've got some ideas floating around to attempt to appeal to both the crowd that really wants that, and the crowd that really doesn't.

Ideally, I’d think, there would be three things on the landing page:

- main chat
- challenges
- running RT games w/ specs

with the option to turn any of these off.


Greetings, Tom

Just throwing something out here: How about a non-web client?

When it comes to go I have yet to find a web interface I'd prefer over a separate client. I know at least the vocal majority says that a successful modern go server must be web based, but I probably wouldn't even use KGS if not for the standalone client. There was a thread somewhere (months ago) where this topic was touched and, surprisingly, quite a few people said they don't like to play go via a browser...

(Let's not go into the extra time needed to develop such a client for now )

walpurgis wrote:Just throwing something out here: How about a non-web client?

When it comes to go I have yet to find a web interface I'd prefer over a separate client. I know at least the vocal majority says that a successful modern go server must be web based, but I probably wouldn't even use KGS if not for the standalone client. There was a thread somewhere (months ago) where this topic was touched and, surprisingly, quite a few people said they don't like to play go via a browser...

(Let's not go into the extra time needed to develop such a client for now )

There isn't a single technical reason to prefer a standalone client to a web client because you can make them look and feel the same.

If you are able to provide the specifics on why you prefer a standalone client, I think that would help a lot of web developers.

uPWarrior wrote:

walpurgis wrote:Just throwing something out here: How about a non-web client?

When it comes to go I have yet to find a web interface I'd prefer over a separate client. I know at least the vocal majority says that a successful modern go server must be web based, but I probably wouldn't even use KGS if not for the standalone client. There was a thread somewhere (months ago) where this topic was touched and, surprisingly, quite a few people said they don't like to play go via a browser...

(Let's not go into the extra time needed to develop such a client for now )

There isn't a single technical reason to prefer a standalone client to a web client because you can make them look and feel the same.

If you are able to provide the specifics on why you prefer a standalone client, I think that would help a lot of web developers.

Doesn't the browser takeover many of the possible hotkey combinations? Like on Nova.gs when I right click on things it brings up a browser, not the app. Isn't it similar for alt-key combinations?

uPWarrior wrote:If you are able to provide the specifics on why you prefer a standalone client, I think that would help a lot of web developers.

I know for me, the ability to resize various frames of the standalone clients is useful and none of the web servers I've played on gave you the flexibility to do that.

uPWarrior wrote:If you are able to provide the specifics on why you prefer a standalone client, I think that would help a lot of web developers.

There are too many reasons to list. But the most prominent reason that comes to me right now is this:

I currently have over 100 tabs open in my browser. For about a month, it was around 150. This is kind of a lot, even for me. But, it's almost never less than 50. Even using extensions that help to manage this mess of tabs, it is still a lot, and a browser-based site just gets lost in the mix.

yoyoma wrote:

uPWarrior wrote:

walpurgis wrote:Just throwing something out here: How about a non-web client?

When it comes to go I have yet to find a web interface I'd prefer over a separate client. I know at least the vocal majority says that a successful modern go server must be web based, but I probably wouldn't even use KGS if not for the standalone client. There was a thread somewhere (months ago) where this topic was touched and, surprisingly, quite a few people said they don't like to play go via a browser...

(Let's not go into the extra time needed to develop such a client for now )

There isn't a single technical reason to prefer a standalone client to a web client because you can make them look and feel the same.

If you are able to provide the specifics on why you prefer a standalone client, I think that would help a lot of web developers.

Doesn't the browser takeover many of the possible hotkey combinations? Like on Nova.gs when I right click on things it brings up a browser, not the app. Isn't it similar for alt-key combinations?

Right click can be easily changed. As an example, look at this website that even allows you to select the theme you would like for your menus: http://www.javascripttoolbox.com/lib/contextmenu/ (right click on default theme/windows xp theme/etc). If right click is something you believe a go server should have, you are not restricted because you are in a browser. It's as easy to implement in a browser as in a standalone app.
I'm not 100% sure about the hotkey combinations, some might be restricted. Nova already allows several and apps like the gmail editor allow things like ctrl+b to turn on bold, etc. I can check if a specific hotkey is modifiable if you want.

oren wrote:I know for me, the ability to resize various frames of the standalone clients is useful and none of the web servers I've played on gave you the flexibility to do that.

I might be mistaken, but I believe frames were first introduced in web browsers and then found their way to some standalone clients. They have fallen in disuse lately. Here is a complex example with many resizable frames: http://layout.jquery-dev.net/demos/iframe_local.html . The flexibility to change the layout of these frames is even easier in a browser than in most languages.


As a developer, one of the worst things people often do when they are giving feedback is believing some things are not possible. Yes, web apps have a certain feel because that's what users are expecting on a webpage and developers try to match that expectation. However, if you believe that something should work differently, then just say so. Web developers do not have their hands tied as some of you might think.