PeterN's Study Journal

[Ember]

Please don't! Of course, every severe change of style leads to loosing more games. But stopping to play doesn't solve the problem at all. Although it does hurt (I understand you only too well), what is important now is to analyse your losses and to understand where you crossed the border. This will help you to regain the balance of attack (which surely is what the dan wanted you to emphasise more) and defence (which cannot be neglected in "greedy" or active play). Go surely can be a very cruel game which makes us stumble and even fall from time to time. But what is important is getting up again and going on!

[PeterN]

Thanks for the comment Ember

I admit I posted that comment out of frustration. I think my normal "style" is play solid, wait for something I can attack, and then make a desperate do or die invasion which is nigh on doomed if I'm losing. Taking the advice of being greedy so far means neglecting defence. Suddenly losing a game I was winning by a large margin because of that got to me

Probably doesn't help that it's coinciding with starting tsumego books which are currently beyond me as well

Time to get back up and keep on being greedy!

PeterN

[skydyr]

I'd be a little skeptical of this advice on its face. He may have been referring to maintaining parity, in the sense of playing with fighting spirit. That is, responding to a 3-4 approach by approaching your opponents 3-4 stone, rather than playing a joseki where your opponent takes sente to make his enclosure, and so forth. Perhaps he thinks you are playing too defensively and need to tenuki more frequently once you are safe? Or maybe he just thinks you need to figure out when 'greedy' moves are actually greedy and punishable, and when they are severe.

[PeterN]

I'd be a little skeptical of this advice on its face. He may have been referring to maintaining parity, in the sense of playing with fighting spirit. That is, responding to a 3-4 approach by approaching your opponents 3-4 stone, rather than playing a joseki where your opponent takes sente to make his enclosure, and so forth. Perhaps he thinks you are playing too defensively and need to tenuki more frequently once you are safe? Or maybe he just thinks you need to figure out when 'greedy' moves are actually greedy and punishable, and when they are severe.

A little clarification on this. In the first game we played at five handicap stones he was unable to kill any of my groups or even put too much pressure on them (until the very end when I got desperate), on the other hand he developed so much faster than me that I still lost. He was mentioning instead of extended two spaces, try three, or invade the opponent and don't sit back and let them take it. But I tend to be a little literal and took greed to heart as the advice.

He did also say that I'm likely to lose a lot if I follow the advice but it should eventually work out better. Perhaps overcompensating to learn quicker then working my way back to a happy medium is what he intended?

It's a common theme in my games that I make solid territory but if the opponent doesn't present weak groups to me I just don't get enough of it. Main reason why I started trying to learn to invade a couple of weeks back.

PeterN

[EdLee]

Peter,

About your game with tomo1989 on Jan 19, 2014 -- in your post #88 --

Games Reviewed: 2 lost games

May I ask who reviewed your 2 lost games ? By that I don't mean the identity; rather, what is the reviewer's level ?

[PeterN]

Hi Ed,

Looking back at my post I only now spot the contradiction. I'll look up this information when I can. Yet more things to think about

PeterN

[skydyr]

I'd be a little skeptical of this advice on its face. He may have been referring to maintaining parity, in the sense of playing with fighting spirit. That is, responding to a 3-4 approach by approaching your opponents 3-4 stone, rather than playing a joseki where your opponent takes sente to make his enclosure, and so forth. Perhaps he thinks you are playing too defensively and need to tenuki more frequently once you are safe? Or maybe he just thinks you need to figure out when 'greedy' moves are actually greedy and punishable, and when they are severe.

A little clarification on this. In the first game we played at five handicap stones he was unable to kill any of my groups or even put too much pressure on them (until the very end when I got desperate), on the other hand he developed so much faster than me that I still lost. He was mentioning instead of extended two spaces, try three, or invade the opponent and don't sit back and let them take it. But I tend to be a little literal and took greed to heart as the advice.

He did also say that I'm likely to lose a lot if I follow the advice but it should eventually work out better. Perhaps overcompensating to learn quicker then working my way back to a happy medium is what he intended?

It's a common theme in my games that I make solid territory but if the opponent doesn't present weak groups to me I just don't get enough of it. Main reason why I started trying to learn to invade a couple of weeks back.

PeterN

There's nothing inherently wrong with solidity, but there's a difference between going for solid territory, which is perhaps not so great early on, and solid groups, which may or may not hold territory as a result of being solid. With solid groups, you have the ability to invade or make good reductions without worrying about damaging your position, but the key is to make that solidity without using a lot of forcing moves that make your opponent solid in return. Solidity and thickness are really only relative, in that a group is solid because other groups are less so. If your opponent is playing faster than you, it should follow that they are also playing thinner, so this should leave openings for you to split their groups or press them down and get the fighting started in your favour.

In a sense, also, if you are making territory without fighting, it is likely inefficient and requires too many gote moves. The aim in fighting or attacking is to make territory or power naturally, by pressuring the opponent, and if there is no pressure, then the opponent is free to do as they please.

[PeterN]

Ed: -

Sadly I didn't record specifically what games it was, I've just been remembering how many reviewed each week, but if I lined the games up right these two were reviewed by a 4k? and a 1 or 2d. Although neither of these were actually the game I posted, I just thought it was a good example of my invasions.

I took a quick glance over the two games I believe these are and the first one I did play solid shapes in fuseki (in my opinion at least), but once I started attacking I created a weak group and then tenuki'd and created another weak group... and then basically died.

In the second I also played what I thought were solid shapes in fuseki and then just got killed without delay....

sky: -

I generally make solid groups to start with, but with the definite aim of taking territory. Although I have learnt from experience I need some degree of influence or I'm going to lose horribly. In these two specific games this week I can nigh on guarantee my opponent had a much thinner position than me simply because I started with five handicap stones! Despite this I did not try to pressure or attack any of his weak groups until I felt secure with my own, and by that point he was secure (enough) with his own, and also well on his way to having more territory. How much of the defence was due to facing a 1 or 2 dan I can't say.

Overall perhaps I should modify what I said about playing solid. I think I start playing solid, but then switch into attack mode where I don't care about making weak groups, but still care about defending my original positions. And when I tried greedy so far I neglected defence more or less entirely, to the extent of ignoring large groups in atari.

All of this last bit is purely my own opinion, only intended to apply to games against opponents of my rank, and even then almost certainly not overly accurate

Figuring out what I'm doing really shouldn't be this hard....

PeterN

[skydyr]

I generally make solid groups to start with, but with the definite aim of taking territory. Although I have learnt from experience I need some degree of influence or I'm going to lose horribly. In these two specific games this week I can nigh on guarantee my opponent had a much thinner position than me simply because I started with five handicap stones! Despite this I did not try to pressure or attack any of his weak groups until I felt secure with my own, and by that point he was secure (enough) with his own, and also well on his way to having more territory. How much of the defence was due to facing a 1 or 2 dan I can't say.

Ah, this is a bit different. As I mentioned earlier, solid and thick are only relative, and if you are thicker than the neighboring groups, then for the time being, you are thick and should use it to attack. So long as your opponent doesn't become thick, he doesn't have time to pick at your weaknesses. You can also go from a slightly thick position to a much more solid one through attacking, if you go about it right.

I would also recommend, if you play it, that you stay away from the attach-extend joseki and similar attachment joseki in a handicap game, as they will make you strong, but they also make your opponent strong, so the rest of the board becomes weaker in comparison and they can use their thickness against your other weaker groups.

Of course, without seeing the game in question, these are all armchair exercises.

[PeterN]

Ok, I'm not very good at remembering games, especially five days later and I can only get a little way in, but this is the best I can do.

http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=4094

After this W largely pushed me down to the third line, there were some shennanegans in the upper left which almost cost me my corner and made W's left group safe, and there ended up being a large fight in the centre which didn't go well for me, R9 definitely died, and I believe J3 did as well.

On the attach and extend joseki it's not one I play. I heavily favour backing off low, one space low pincers, and kicks if it's an approach where I have the star point pincer already (I have no idea what the proper term is here).

PeterN

[skydyr]

Ok, I'm not very good at remembering games, especially five days later and I can only get a little way in, but this is the best I can do.

http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=4094

After this W largely pushed me down to the third line, there were some shennanegans in the upper left which almost cost me my corner and made W's left group safe, and there ended up being a large fight in the centre which didn't go well for me, R9 definitely died, and I believe J3 did as well.

On the attach and extend joseki it's not one I play. I heavily favour backing off low, one space low pincers, and kicks if it's an approach where I have the star point pincer already (I have no idea what the proper term is here).

PeterN

OK. First, while white can try for complications, it's worth considering playing the one space jump defense instead of the knight's move, as it allows you to pressure the original approach much more strongly. It is also more coordinated with the tengen stone, the meaning of which you don't want to just throw away.

Second, moves 16 and 22 seem kind of slow and give white opportunities. White tenukied after black responded, so it's up to black to make white look bad if he comes here first. The way to do this is either to kick, since if white stands up black can pincer strongly, or to pincer tightly, since white can't run into the corner well due to the knight's move defense. If black is going to move against these stones, it feels more severe to attack the topside one than the left one. Black could also consider making a corner enclosure in the bottom right, probably facing up the right side.

Move 24 is making a safe group safe when black can take control of the entire left side.

Black could probably invade directly once white protects on the left, as allowing that to get strong is a waste of potential. Black's bottom extension isn't bad, as it's relatively sente against the bottomside group, provided you know how to gouge out white's eyespace or split white as a follow up.

[EdLee]

(;CA[utf-8]RU[Japanese]GM[1]FF[4]AB[dd][pd][jj][dp][pp]AP[CGoban:3]SZ[19]ST[2]PB[PeterN]
BR[6k]PW[White]WR[1d]KM[0.5]HA[5]MULTIGOGM[0]
;W[cn];B[fq];W[fc];B[cf];W[nc];B[lc];W[qc];B[pc];W[qd];B[pe];W[pb];B[ob];W[qb];B[oc]
;W[qf];B[bp];W[nq]
(;B[qn]C[Of course, there are no 'big mistakes', especially not at these levels.
But I'm not sure about moves 2, 4, and 16 (given the global situations, pincers seem very natural.)

See var.]
;W[pr];B[qq];W[kq]
(;B[db]LB[ck:a][ic:b]C[Now it is very clear -- B has miai of the pincers (a) and (b).

See also var.]
(;W[ic]C[W helps this top weak stone...]
(;B[qk]C[...and you missed the miai. See var.];W[dj]
(;B[iq]C[Again, soft. See var.

Of course, B has made no 'big mistakes' so far, not for these levels.
So if you lost the game, the bigger mistakes were later --
the mistakes in fights, those are the important mistakes to review.])
(;B[cl]LB[dj:a]C[Suppose (a) is the correct move in the game -- and it seems reasonable for this handi game.
We look at the board globally -- B has no weak groups, anywhere --
thanks to your joseki moves each corner. This is an obvious weakness in W's shape.
Attack immediately.]))
(;B[cl]C[Take the other miai pincer direction -- not sure if 1-space or 2-space, or high or low, is best.]))
(;W[jc]LB[hc:a][ck:b]C[P. Might have been this, not sure

e. If it is this 3-space extension, you can jump into (a).
You also have the pincer direction (b).]))
(;B[ec]LB[cf:a]C[Especially since you already have (a), you can consider this kick to make W heavy first...
See continuation.]
;W[fd];B[id]C[Severe attack.]))
(;B[lq]LB[qf:a][ck:b][ic:c][qn:d]C[Globally, (a) is low -- this means the right side has limited development.
This means neither B nor W wants the right side. The bottom is where B
can develop, so this pincer is very natural.

Also, B has miai of the pincers (b) and (c).

The choice between simply replying at (d) or pincering this direction is not arbitrary.
Same for your moves 2, 4 and, 16 -- you want to pick the one that's best for you, globally.]))

[PeterN]

Thanks for the comments Ed. On move 18 I'd always thought R14 being low was a reason for backing off low as opposed to high, not a reason to pincer instead of backing off. I need to correct that thinking.

While the mistakes that occurred in fighting would be the ones that actually lost the game I have no hope of remembering something like that this long after the game, and not seizing on W's weaknesses helped set me up for not so favourable fights.

PeterN

[PeterN]

Progress Report: -

Tsumego: Continued reading Graded Go Problems for Beginners IV
Games Reviewed: 1 lost game
Other: None

This has been an extremely slack week for me on go, I only did a single day's worth of tsumego and got just one game reviewed on the ASR league.

I'm also not sure how much I'll get round to doing next week as I'm starting my new job, albeit still with the same company.

Mentally I definitely feel in a much stronger place than last week, but I have also regressed on trying to be greedy, which I'm going to assume is linked. Had a two stone handicap game today (as B) where there where a couple of opportunities to invade but the very move before I was intending to do so (assuming I managed to get sente) my opponent defended them. I suspect I should have played the invasions earlier as I doubt they would have been ignored.

Thanks to everyone who commented over the last week, you really helped me get back up, even if I haven't done a great deal since then

PeterN

[PeterN]

Progress Report: -

Tsumego: Read through Graded Go Problems for Beginners IV (66.15% correct)
Games Reviewed: 1 lost game
Other: None

That tsumego book was far harder than I was expecting to start with but finally got through it. This week I not only kept up with my normal schedule of all train journeys but also spent about an extra day's worth yesterday to finish the book off. That being said there's a limit to how much time I'll spend on a tsumego, just a gut feeling of "this is taking too long" and could be anything between 2 and 10 minutes, at which point I'll just go for my best guess and see how close.

Next week I'm switching down a book level so I don't feel so frustrated I think.

PeterN