Page 7 of 8

Re: 57. Chew Terr (5k) vs Fwiffo (4k) Open

Posted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 5:52 pm
by amnal
I don't like this move. Even if black doesn't have F5, he can now generally connect underneath easily. If white wants to do something nasty, it is rarely to force black into good shape in this way.

I think it is better, and bigger, to play E2. This would be even better if black answers submissively now, then white can get E2 in sente before pulling this stone out in good shape having forced on both sides.

I think it will be wrong for white to play any more stones on top, as this will encourage black to play the massive E2 miai point. I wonder if white underestimates E2, or I underestimate white's move, or I overestimate E2.


EDIT: Of course, it would also be good for white to play some destructive invasion in black's slightyl weak shape, but no point is obvious to me.

I also wonder if white is aiming at this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm81 Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . X X O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . O . X O . X O X X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X X . X O . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . O . . O O O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O . . O X X . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . X O . O , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X X 7 X . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . 6 . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . x . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . 4 2 O . X . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . X 3 1 . . . X . O O X O O . |
$$ | . . . 8 5 . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This tries to get the best of both worlds in reduction, but I think moves like black x make the shape too poor. I do not think white's move is the best way to achieve his goal.

Re: 57. Chew Terr (5k) vs Fwiffo (4k) Open

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:33 am
by Chew Terr
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm81 Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . X X O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . O . X O . X O X X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X X . X O . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . O . . O O O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O . . O X X . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . X O . O , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O . X . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . X . 1 . . . X . O O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'd love to attach on top, but I really don't think I can. This is a reduction because of that, but I don't know if it will get out in sente. There are several areas I'd like to play (the center, the bottom right, and a few other places that feel smaller). I'm walking a line between playing solidly and firmly and playing passively, and hoping I don't stray the wrong direction. I wonder if my opponent intends to tenuki and leave this as a forcing move...

Re: 57. Chew Terr (5k) vs Fwiffo (4k) Open

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:02 am
by fwiffo
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm91 Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . X X O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . O . X O . X O X X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X X . X O . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . O . . O O O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O . . O X X . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . X O . O , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . 2 . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . O . X . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . X . X . . . X . O O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't think I'm going to have enough here unless my opponent makes a grievous tactical error.

Re: 57. Chew Terr (5k) vs Fwiffo (4k) Open

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:30 am
by Chew Terr
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm91 Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . X X O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . O . X O . X O X X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X X . X O . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . O . . O O O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O . . O X X . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . X O . O , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . 3 O . X . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . X . X . . . X . O O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Observers: Prepare to be amazed by my upcoming grievous tactical error! Seriously though, whether or not I'm ahead, one misstep will give my opponent the game gift-wrapped, so I have to read and keep alert. I believe that this is the best response, locally. And I think tenuki invites too much chaos and murder.

Re: 57. Chew Terr (5k) vs Fwiffo (4k) Open

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:44 am
by fwiffo
Let's give a rough count. Being generous, and giving me a few points in the center, I see black about 10 ahead with this very rough count. If I do very well in endgame, maybe I can make some of that up... So I guess it's not resign yet...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm91 Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . x x x x x x x x x x x x x . . . o o |
$$ | . X X X . x x x x x x x x x X O O o o |
$$ | . O X O . X x x x x x x x X . X O o o |
$$ | . . O O . . . . X X P x x . . X O o . |
$$ | . . o . . X . . O . X P . X O X X O . |
$$ | o o o O . . . . . . X X . X O . X O . |
$$ | o o o . . X . . . O . . O O O . X . . |
$$ | o o o O . X O . . O X X . . o O O X . |
$$ | o o o . . X . . . . X . . . O o O X . |
$$ | . . O O . X O o O , . . . . o O X x x |
$$ | . . X X . X . . o . O . . O . . X x x |
$$ | . . . . . . O o o . . . . . . X x x x |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . x x x |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . X X P x x |
$$ | o o . . . X . . . . . . . O . . x . . |
$$ | o o o O . . X O . X . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | o o o O . X x X . x x X . O O X O O . |
$$ | o o o . . . x x x x x . . . o O o o . |
$$ | o o o . . . x x x x x . . . o o o o o |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: 57. Chew Terr (5k) vs Fwiffo (4k) Open

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 12:10 pm
by fwiffo
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm91 Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . X X O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . O . X O . X O X X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X X . X O . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . O . . O O O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O . . O X X . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . X O . O , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X O 4 X . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . X . X . . . X . O O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Not sure what to do...

Re: 57. Chew Terr (5k) vs Fwiffo (4k) Open

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 12:12 pm
by Chew Terr
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm91 Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . X X O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . O . X O . X O X X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X X . X O . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . O . . O O O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O . . O X X . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . X O . O , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X O O X . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . X . X 5 . . X . O O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Hey, I could tenuki to... no.

Re: 57. Chew Terr (5k) vs Fwiffo (4k) Open

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 12:21 pm
by fwiffo
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm91 Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . X X O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . O . X O . X O X X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X X . X O . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . O . . O O O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O . . O X X . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . X O . O , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . 6 . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X O O X . . . O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . X . X X . . X . O O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I can haz center territory?

Re: 57. Chew Terr (5k) vs Fwiffo (4k) Open

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 12:26 pm
by Chew Terr
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm91 Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . X X O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . O . X O . X O X X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X X . X O . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . O . . O O O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O . . O X X . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . X O . O , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . O . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X O O X 7 . . O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . X . X X . . X . O O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Give it a shot?

Re: 57. Chew Terr (5k) vs Fwiffo (4k) Open

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 12:32 pm
by fwiffo
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm91 Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . X X O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . O . X O . X O X X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X X . X O . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . O . . O O O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O . . O X X . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . X O . O , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . O 8 . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X O O X X . . O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . X . X X . . X . O O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Hey, maybe I can haz. My shape might even be acceptable.

Re: 57. Chew Terr (5k) vs Fwiffo (4k) Open

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 12:34 pm
by Chew Terr
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm91 Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . X X O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . O . X O . X O X X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X X . X O . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . O . . O O O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O . . O X X . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . X O . O , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . O O 9 . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X O O X X . . O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . O . X . X X . . X . O O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I hope this doesn't work as well as my opponent hopes it will.

Re: 57. Chew Terr (5k) vs Fwiffo (4k) Open

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 12:43 pm
by fwiffo
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm91 Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . X X O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . O . X O . X O X X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X X . X O . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . O . . O O O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O . . O X X . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . X O . O , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X X . X . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . O O X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X O O X X . . O X X X X 0 |
$$ | . . . O . X . X X . . X . O O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

OK, while I'm pushing things around, maybe I should take some sente points around the board...

Re: 57. Chew Terr (5k) vs Fwiffo (4k) Open

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 12:56 pm
by Chew Terr
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm91 Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . X X O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . O . X O . X O X X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X X . X O . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . O . . O O O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O . . O X X . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . X O . O , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . 1 X X . X . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . O O X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X O O X X . . O X X X X O |
$$ | . . . O . X . X X . . X . O O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Oh, are we in endgame? Because this is the biggest endgame point I see. If I get to play inside that top left area, will you live?

Re: 57. Chew Terr (5k) vs Fwiffo (4k) Open

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 1:05 pm
by fwiffo
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm101 Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . X X O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . O . X O . X O X X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X X . X O . X O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . O . . O O O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O . . O X X . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . X O . O , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . X X O . 2 |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . O O X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X O O X X . . O X X X X O |
$$ | . . . O . X . X X . . X . O O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I may ask you the same question... Do you live if I cut this group off now?

Re: 57. Chew Terr (5k) vs Fwiffo (4k) Open

Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 1:13 pm
by Chew Terr
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm101 Prisoners - W: 0, B: 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O X O . X . . . . . . . X . X O . . |
$$ | . . O O . . . . X X O . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . O . X O . X O X X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . X X . X O . X O . |
$$ | . . 3 . . X . . . O . . O O O . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . X O . . O X X . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . O O . X O . O , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . X X X . X . . . . O . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . O . . . . . . X X O . O |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . O O X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . X O O X X . . O X X X X O |
$$ | . . . O . X . X X . . X . O O X O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Yes, I live. The jury's still out on your group, though. No, I'm not actually this sure of myself, but I have to play according to my reading, even if it's scary.