Life In 19x19

I don't think money defines how KGS admins treat users, but I am open to receiving large sums of cash if somebody wants to conduct an experiment. You should always receive a civil or polite reply from the 'admin mailbox'. With regard to this case, I still don't know actually happened. This appears to be a case of somebody writing what they actually felt, rather than what they are supposed to write in relation to their role. I know that I've done the same in my life, both inside KGS and without. Not having seen the email or actually knowing the entire background, I don't feel like being that judgemental about it.

The results are unfortunately within the range of "normal" for people assuming spare time admin jobs. Being admin puts a very high strain on your psyche, causing those who aren't professionally trained personnel sometimes to go bonkers ("AHAHA YOU NOTORIOUS TROLL WE GOT YOU GOOD" email) or turning into a machine from hell instead ("Don't-talk-in-this-room-please-or-I-have-to-eliminate-you") at some point without it actually being their fault.

I am serious when I say, please be more relaxed to the admins, their job can really be hellish and they aren't getting money for it but they're just normal Go players sacrificing their spare time for it. I remember when I made a totally normal suggestion to J*** when I was relatively new to KGS (he resigned a loooong time ago), and he immediately took it as some sort of attack, like why the heck I'm criticising and what my intention is. I was just totally flabbergasted because I suggested a neutral idea I thought was a good improvement for the server in a friendly tone, but such IS what happens when you as an admin have to deal non stop with users in unpleasant ways.

How can you do that? Pretty simple: Always be especially nice when talking to admins, to lighten up their mood. Then explain that you would like to help out (re: tournament stream link). Unlike in this case, usually you won't get a "we don't need your help here, go away" reply, but the admin will be happy too.
If you are really unsure what's going on, to be on the safe side, just stick with the admins you know they do not snap (or enter machine mode). Great examples of safe admins are: It, Javaness, Muttley.

If you can, meet an admin in real life, you will be surprised that it'll be a nice person even though you might have hated him/her on KGS.

Uberdude wrote:Some admins seem to forget that, due to their greater power and responsibility, they should have a higher standard of behaviour than the regular users they police. xDragon has quite probably deserved some of his past bans, but that shouldn't prejudice new cases and sweety's response was uncivil and inappropriate. RBerenguel, I doubt there was deliberate plotting on Nyanilla's or the booting admins part, based on the info so far probably just the booting admin thought she has said 'no more links' rather than 'correct links', or thought that themselves, plus a predisposition against xDragon means a trigger happy boot.

Yes. And agreed, for xDragon it seems like even though he might've been banned rightfully (I don't know) in the past, now whenever he is accused wrongly or gets banned wrongly everyone is like "hey pretty sure you deserved this too, shut up", and when he gets somewhat heated up about it and doesn't write every forum post 100% carefully in every detail, he is just accused of even much more probably being the bad guy. :-p
Everyone who has been on KGS for a long enough time to observe the admins in many situations, knows that there is much more to this than xDragon presumably being at fault all the time, lol..


Also (this goes for everyone^^): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor

C. Blue wrote:Pretty simple: Always be especially nice when talking to admins, to lighten up their mood.

This is a very good suggestion, and in case I need to talk with an admin the way I'd do it. But anyway, it feels very wrong. It's not like I like being nasty, but I won't be nicer than "sorry to disturb you but... yadda yadda yadda, thanks." When online I always give the consideration that I may be disturbing the other party, but aside from that, they have an admin role. They are there to take these suggestions, if they take a suggestion badly I'd suggest quitting admin-ing and enjoying life (or go.)

palapiku wrote:

Dear KGS-troll,

We didn't forget what you brought to us, now simply you had it back.

ahahaha, KGS...

i don't care if KGS admins are volunteers, insulting the users, especially ones that just got officially punished (banned), is simply not cool.

I work in marketing and I would immediately fire anyone on my staff who ever spoke so rudely to a client/rival/whatever while representing my company. No questions asked, you're done.

I have a hobby website and would immediately fire any moderator on my staff who ever spoke so rudely to a user. No questions asked, you're off the team.

It doesn't matter if the user in question painted the Sistine Chapel with a mural of the moderator's mother doing unspeakable acts with Go stones, you cannot and must not be anything more than patient and respectful.

KGS should be ashamed to tolerate such behavior among their inner circle.

To me as someone who does not use KGS very much, this does look like a lot of Kindergarten.

Someone was acting poorly, and then an Admin responded poorly.

Drew wrote:
I work in marketing and I would immediately fire anyone on my staff who ever spoke so rudely to a client/rival/whatever while representing my company. No questions asked, you're done.

I have a hobby website and would immediately fire any moderator on my staff who ever spoke so rudely to a user. No questions asked, you're off the team.

It doesn't matter if the user in question painted the Sistine Chapel with a mural of the moderator's mother doing unspeakable acts with Go stones, you cannot and must not be anything more than patient and respectful.

KGS should be ashamed to tolerate such behavior among their inner circle.

Except Drew I suspect that you might be inexperienced with the world of voluntary organizations. In that context "being the boss" gives you a great deal less power over subordinates than what you are familiar with.

Try picturing how you would have to operate in the business environment with which you are familiar except with one teensy change. Imagine that there was no pool of unemployed out there, so if you fired a worker you would be unable to hire a replacement. You could get rid of any worker if you wanted to, but would then have to manage to carry on with one less.

I rather suspect that there is no "waiting line" of people eager to be a KGS moderator.

I rather suspect that you would have a great deal more trouble with controlling your workers if you weren't paying them, if they were there if they felt like it and gone if they felt like it.

Mike Novack wrote:I rather suspect that there is no "waiting line" of people eager to be a KGS moderator.

I'd imagine it's exactly the opposite actually. It'd just be that the vast, vast majority you wouldn't let near any role with admin powers...

Boidhre wrote:

Mike Novack wrote:I rather suspect that there is no "waiting line" of people eager to be a KGS moderator.

I'd imagine it's exactly the opposite actually. It'd just be that the vast, vast majority you wouldn't let near any role with admin powers...

I agree with Boidhre.

Bad volunteers, just like bad paid employees, drive away customers. Without customers you are nothing.

The behavior revealed in this thread does real damage to KGS' image, as evidenced by replies in this same thread.

Is it a drop in the bucket? Absolutely. But without action it becomes more of a leaky faucet...

If the KGS powers-that-be believe that they can ignore this behavior and not duly suffer, that is their judgment to make. Time will validate or invalidate their decision.

I happen to disagree, and have adjusted my behavior as a customer accordingly.

When I used to spend a lot of time on KGS I would willingly have been an admin if it meant BigDoug wasn't and I believe I'd do a better job than him (my metric for admin success is reducing problems not number of interventions). I regret that when I was canvassed about being an admin some years ago I declined as I did not realize there was a shortage of admins and following that the trouble-making* admins like BigDoug and Nyanjilla were reinstated.

* I don't mean they are intentional trolls, but that their heavy-handed and interventionist approach can often annoy users and create trouble and resentment. I am a proponent of a more laissez-faire style.

And as for driving away customers, KGS does seem to be declining. When I got my smartphone I didn't buy the KGS android client because I don't feel like giving money to wms anymore with his laziness on the sound problem and dislike of the admin situation. A few years ago I would have bought it. Now I play on IGS (for free) on my phone (which also has the advantage of more players so it's easier to get a game).

i guess doug doesnt think highly of us. he sees the people defending me as just my cheer squad?

EGR:





then doug pm...

If it is a private conversation and the other person told you not to post it in public, it's really disrespectful to post it in public.

PM messages are personal conversations which should not be posted in the L19 forum as per the following rule.

3. Meaningless Posts
Keep posts relevant to the topic and make sure to use the edit button when appropriate. Don't post for the sake of post counts. Spam is not allowed. Also, personal conversations between members should be done via Private Messaging, not in a thread.

tchan001 wrote:If it is a private conversation and the other person told you not to post it in public, it's really disrespectful to post it in public.

PM messages are personal conversations which should not be posted in the L19 forum as per the following rule.

3. Meaningless Posts
Keep posts relevant to the topic and make sure to use the edit button when appropriate. Don't post for the sake of post counts. Spam is not allowed. Also, personal conversations between members should be done via Private Messaging, not in a thread.

1. thats referring to l19, not kgs

1b. thats not even a relevant rule. that is saying that conversations between two people should be done via pm instead of in a thread. nothing related to what youre implying.

2. if he says that only because what he says is incriminating toward his treatment of me and others, then why should i respect that? its clear he only said that because he realized what he said could make him look bad

The conversation which you posted after BD's warning is in my opinion baiting the KGS admins in general to give punishment to those involved. I would imagine that you were not the only one to be given warning by PM. Giving warning by PM in KGS seems to be a standard procedure. All you do by posting the contents of the KGS PM is to show the world you don't respect warnings from KGS admins. So you flaunt your disrespect and you just want others to cheer you on for your actions which could possibly get you banned from KGS.

As to what you personally posted, I'd say that it is not exactly the most respectful thing to ask in public if a KGS admin died of blood loss just because you don't see them online. You can honestly not know what happened to glue, but the way you asked is honestly not the best way to say it.

tchan001 wrote:The conversation which you posted after BD's warning is in my opinion baiting the KGS admins in general to give punishment to those involved. I would imagine that you were not the only one to be given warning by PM. Giving warning by PM in KGS seems to be a standard procedure. All you do by posting the contents of the KGS PM is to show the world you don't respect warnings from KGS admins. So you flaunt your disrespect and you just want others to cheer you on for your actions which could possibly get you banned from KGS.

As to what you personally posted, I'd say that it is not exactly the most respectful thing to ask in public if a KGS admin died of blood loss just because you don't see them online. You can honestly not know what happened to glue, but the way you asked is honestly not the best way to say it.

that was not a warning, that was a punishment. thats one thing you have wrong. youre also trying to say that i shouldnt ask the admin what i did wrong.

not to mention i can say that youre very likely wrong on doug warning others via pm for a few reasons. its standard protocol for him to warn publicly. he did this with the user originally, twice even. in the pm, he said that he used to talk publicly but thought it was "pointless".

i do find it funny that you think asking the admin what i did wrong is disrespect. it shows me that you shouldnt be in a position of power if you think it should go unquestioned. especially when this admin has a long history of being disrespectful toward others.

you did the exact same thing in page 1 of this thread, you took quotes out of context and twisted rules to try to make me look like the bad guy. and now youer doing it again by trying to misapply a l19 rule.

i have to ask you to not post in this thread again, because all youve done is try to slander me, both now and a month ago. i wont be responding to anymore of your posts in here unless i feel like youre still trying to slander me. thank you.

There is nothing wrong with asking an admin what you did wrong. What is wrong is posting something which was meant to be a private conversation in public especially after the other party of the conversation explicitly told you not to.