[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoners - $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O O X . X . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . X . O X . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O O . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X , . . O . O X O O . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X O . . O X X X . X O O . X X . . | $$ | . X O O . O X . . . . X X O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
i chose the two space high pincer to give it a better relationship with my four stones. As opposed to the Taisha or low pincers that have awkward shape.
Click Here To Hide Diagram Code
$$Bcm51 Prisoners - $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . b a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O O X . X . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . X . O X . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O O . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X , . . O . O X O O . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X O . . O X X X . X O O . X X . . | $$ | . X O O . O X . . . . X X O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoners - $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O O X . X . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . X . O X . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O O . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X , . . O . O X O O . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X O . . O X X X . X O O . X X . . | $$ | . X O O . O X . . . . X X O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
Huh. I'll admit I'm surprised by this move. I've never actually had it played against me. I know it is a real move, but it always struck me as a strange idea. Why play so far away? Why not go down to the third line to pincer the stone? I think I get it here, though. seems to help his group on the left while applying pressure to my stone.
I feel like I only had two options for this next move. (I did consider a 2-3 move to just live in the corner, but that feels so passive and not necessary when I look at how open this board is. I also believe I can tenuki from this, but I don't see anything bigger on the board.) It seems that either I come out via a taisha-like attachment or I come out with a solid diagonal. What I like about the move I picked is that it doesn't encourage white to strengthen either side. Both sides have weaknesses that I feel I can exploit, so this move seems to give me the most options. On the downside, it lets my opponent pick the direction of play for the next few moves.
What I did not like about the attachment is I could do after the outside hane. I'd assume my opponent wouldn't wedge into a psuedo-taisha, so this would probably be the result. After this I have moves at 'a', 'b', and 'c' and none looks that amazing to me.
$$Bcm51 Other option $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a 6 O . . . . . . . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . 1 , 3 4 . . . , O . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . c . 5 . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O O X . X . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . X . O X . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O O . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X , . . O . O X O O . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X O . . O X X X . X O O . X X . . | $$ | . X O O . O X . . . . X X O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm51 Other option $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a 6 O . . . . . . . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . 1 , 3 4 . . . , O . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . c . 5 . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O O X . X . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . X . O X . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O O . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X , . . O . O X O O . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X O . . O X X X . X O O . X X . . | $$ | . X O O . O X . . . . X X O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
So the choice belongs to my opponent. Which side does he help? I will then attack the other side. If he helps the top I will pincer on the left, if he helps the left I will pincer on the top.
Re: #233 moyoaji vs. Hades12
Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2014 6:21 pm
by Hades12
E15 attachment. Explanation to come later if I have time.
Re: #233 moyoaji vs. Hades12
Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:33 pm
by moyoaji
$$Bcm51 Prisoners - $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O O X . X . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . X . O X . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O O . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X , . . O . O X O O . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X O . . O X X X . X O O . X X . . | $$ | . X O O . O X . . . . X X O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoners - $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O O X . X . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . X . O X . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O O . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X , . . O . O X O O . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X O . . O X X X . X O O . X X . . | $$ | . X O O . O X . . . . X X O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
Didn't think Hades12 would attach on the outside because his stones are quite thin, but I guess I was wrong.
This seems like the only move. I would prefer to wedge on the other side first, but that stone will be ataried right away. Instead, I cut on this side. I expect he will crosscut and then I can wedge. After that I hope to capture the 3-5 stone and take a big corner. We'll see what happens.
Re: #233 moyoaji vs. Hades12
Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 2:38 pm
by Bill Spight
$$Wcm54 Prisoners - $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . X , 4 6 . . . , O . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . X 1 5 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . 3 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O O X . X . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . X . O X . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O O . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X , . . O . O X O O . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X O . . O X X X . X O O . X X . . | $$ | . X O O . O X . . . . X X O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoners - $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . 3 4 6 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . 7 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O O X . X . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . X . O X . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O O . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X , . . O . O X O O . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X O . . O X X X . X O O . X X . . | $$ | . X O O . O X . . . . X X O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
If I have another move I don't know what it is. This gives him broken shape. He's now split apart. And I'm out of the corner. Don't see how any of that is bad.
Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 6:00 pm
by EdLee
Bill Spight wrote:
$$Wm54 $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . X 1 3 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . 4 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 5 W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O O X . X . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . X . O X . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O O . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X , . . O . O X O O . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X O . . O X X X . X O O . X X . . | $$ | . X O O . O X . . . . X X O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoners - $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 9 O . . . . . . . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . 3 4 6 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . 7 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 8 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O O X . X . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . X . O X . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O O . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X , . . O . O X O O . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X O . . O X X X . X O O . X X . . | $$ | . X O O . O X . . . . X X O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
I don't want this group to become weak. This move helps my group while also putting pressure on white's group.
After this, I would really like to tenuki to play a move on the right side. My 6-space extension is hardly ideal there. However, for the strength of my corner, I didn't feel I could justify playing a long-knight extension to get 5 spaces. Additionally, if I play a bend around white's stones at P12 and then extend on the right I'd want to go 3 spaces, making a nice relationship from my currently 6-space extension.
$$Bcm1 Something like this $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . X O O . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . 4 2 1 X . . . | $$ | . . O O X . X . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . X . O X . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O O . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X , . . O . O X O O . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X O . . O X X X . X O O . X X . . | $$ | . X O O . O X . . . . X X O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------
[go]$$Bcm51 Prisoners - $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 9 O . . . . . . . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . 3 4 6 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . 7 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 8 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O O X . X . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . X . O X . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O O . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X , . . O . O X O O . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X O . . O X X X . X O O . X X . . | $$ | . X O O . O X . . . . X X O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ----------------------------------------[/go]
i feel about fifteen points behind not including any potential in the center. So a reduction feels necessary.
Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:31 pm
by EdLee
Hmm... which side to block, (a) or (b) ? Either one makes good shape for B, so was suspect... Maybe (b) makes B just a bit over-concentrated ? If so, (a) is better.
$$Bm51 $$ ----------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 9 O . . . . . . . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . 3 4 6 . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . 7 5 . . . . . . . . . . . a . . | $$ | . . 8 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , b . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O O X . X . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . X . O X . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O O . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . X , . . O . O X O O . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X O . . O X X X . X O O . X X . . | $$ | . X O O . O X . . . . X X O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ -----------------------------------------
seems to help his group on the left while applying pressure to my stone.
is the culprit.
is very big. (It's also a very big shared vital point).
directly? Or even 
directly? Not sure, we'll see how I feel after white moves.
was suspect...