This 'n' that
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Gérard TAILLE
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Re: This 'n' that
BTW, if you do not know the white move at "a" and you play white "b" then black is komaster and is able to kill the top left white corner.
Otherwise if white plays "a" he will be able to save his group by playing first at "a" and black has no more ko threat. But note that by playing at "a" white do not play in the environment in order to gain t points and that means that the black ko threat allows black to add t + 1 to her score (t for a play in the enviroment and +1 for the white move in white territory).
I do not know what is the correct wording here. Certainly black in not "komaster" but her ko threat cannot be ignore and will assure some good points.
Otherwise if white plays "a" he will be able to save his group by playing first at "a" and black has no more ko threat. But note that by playing at "a" white do not play in the environment in order to gain t points and that means that the black ko threat allows black to add t + 1 to her score (t for a play in the enviroment and +1 for the white move in white territory).
I do not know what is the correct wording here. Certainly black in not "komaster" but her ko threat cannot be ignore and will assure some good points.
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Bill Spight
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Re: This 'n' that
The thing is that kos typically destroy the independence of the local area of the ko and the rest of the board. The concepts of komaster and NTE are ways of taking account of the relevance of the rest of the board. With kos we cannot always rely upon the basic idea of miai values.Gérard TAILLE wrote:Gérard TAILLE wrote:Though I follow your calculation the conclusion does not fit with my understanding of the miai value basic concept. For me a miai value of say "6" means that each player has to play in the local area when the temperature drops under 6.Bill Spight wrote:Oh, yes. Generally speaking the point of Black starting on the 2-2 is to make the ko, not to generate ko threats.
Up until now we have focused on the play that you discovered where Black makes the ko, despite neither player having a ko threat, now or later.
Evaluation of kos, except for placid kos, depends upon what assumptions we make. Berlekamp's brilliant komaster analysis depends upon assumptions that are usually not met exactly on the go board, but which provide useful approximate limits. When neither side is komaster, he came up with the idea of a neutral threat environment (NTE), where each player has the exact opposite of the ko threats of the other, where the ko threats are sufficiently large. How good an approximation NTE produces in practice is another question, but let's give it a shot.
gets a local score of -5 in one net play.
gets a net local score of -3 in one net play.
Now we have reached a position after one net move by Black such that either player, playing first could win the ko in two local plays by ignoring the opponent's threat.
= ko threat,
completes threat
Afterthere is a local score of -7 plus a gote worth on average 0 when t > 1.
= ko threat,
completes threat
Afterthere is a local score of +21.
By assumption, what each player gains by playing and completing their threat is the same, and therefore cancel out in the average, so the average value of the given position under NTE when t > 1 is the average of the value of these two politions. That value is (21 - 7)/2 = 7, 10 points better than -3.
So, under NTE conditions, the average value of the corner is (7 - 5)/2 = 1, and the miai value of a play is 6.
Miai values rely upon average territorial values. With a ko, strictly speaking there may not be an average value, and thus, no miai value in the basic sense, either. That is why Berlekamp talked about the mast values of kos.
And indeed, if NTE conditions apply, either player should play in the corner when the global temperature drops under 6. In addition, with complex kos such as this one, altering the conditions on the rest of the board is often done instead of playing in the local ko position.
And, as we have seen, with this ko the top three plays elsewhere may be considered as local. Kos destroy the independence of the board.
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— Winona Adkins
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— Winona Adkins
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Bill Spight
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Re: This 'n' that
I have dubbed the ko plus other relevant regions of the board the ko ensemble.
Maybe I have goofed, but I think that the ko corner plus one humungous ko threat for Black makes Black komaster. Here is an SGF file.
The ko ensemble has a mast value of -1½, with each play gaining 6½ points on average.
Maybe I have goofed, but I think that the ko corner plus one humungous ko threat for Black makes Black komaster. Here is an SGF file.
The ko ensemble has a mast value of -1½, with each play gaining 6½ points on average.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Gérard TAILLE
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Re: This 'n' that
Bill Spight wrote:I have dubbed the ko plus other relevant regions of the board the ko ensemble.
Maybe I have goofed, but I think that the ko corner plus one humungous ko threat for Black makes Black komaster. Here is an SGF file.
Oops why not the above sequence? I alaways proposed to play white tenuki in the corner just after having played my new move A17. That way white can save his group.
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Bill Spight
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Re: This 'n' that
Very good, thanks. 
Here is a new SGF file. Edited for correctness.
So the mast value of the ko ensemble is -5 points and the average gain per move is 3 points.
Edit: As pointed out later, this calculation does not give the value of the vertical mast, which is what the unqualified term, mast value, indicates.
Here is a new SGF file. Edited for correctness.
So the mast value of the ko ensemble is -5 points and the average gain per move is 3 points.
Edit: As pointed out later, this calculation does not give the value of the vertical mast, which is what the unqualified term, mast value, indicates.
Last edited by Bill Spight on Wed Jun 30, 2021 1:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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— Winona Adkins
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Gérard TAILLE
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Re: This 'n' that
I do not understand how you count the ko variantBill Spight wrote:Very good, thanks.
Here is a new SGF file. Edited for correctness.
So the average value of the ko ensemble is -5 points and the average gain per move is 3 points.
Unless the temperature is very low the answer
My feeling is that white must play in the corner as soon as she cannot afford to give up the corner. IOW I see a miai value far higher than yours and probably near from 6½. Are you sure white has better to play in the environment if temperature is between 3 and 6½ ?
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Bill Spight
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Re: This 'n' that
It is sente, isn't it?Gérard TAILLE wrote:I do not understand how you count the ko variantBill Spight wrote:Very good, thanks.
Here is a new SGF file. Edited for correctness.
So the average value of the ko ensemble is -5 points and the average gain per move is 3 points.
Unless the temperature is very low the answeris very bad isn't it?
To find the local territorial count you play out the sente.
If Black plays elsewhere, so that White wins the ko with more local plays than Black, we cannot find a mast value fo the ko ensemble, because then White plays as many net local plays as when White plays first. If you want to consider a Black play elsewhere at this point, it must be part of the ko ensemble.
When you can read the play out you don't need theory. Both thermography and the traditional way of estimating territory and the value of plays only promise estimates and heuristics. So whenever you ask me whether I am sure that a heuristic is right, regardless of the rest of the board, I have to say no.Gérard TAILLE wrote:My feeling is that white must play in the corner as soon as she cannot afford to give up the corner. IOW I see a miai value far higher than yours and probably near from 6½. Are you sure white has better to play in the environment if temperature is between 3 and 6½ ?
But looking at this corner with no ko threats, we found that the three hottest positions probably belong in the ko ensemble. Maybe in this case the two hottest positions belong in the ko ensemble.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
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Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Gérard TAILLE
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Re: This 'n' that
I do dot understand Bill.Bill Spight wrote: It is sente, isn't it?
To find the local territorial count you play out the sente.
OC it is sente but that does not mean that you have to play it to find the territorial count.
Let's take a very simple example
After
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Bill Spight
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Re: This 'n' that
It's a bad play at territorial scoring, because it gains nothing. {shrug} We do not play it for that reason.Gérard TAILLE wrote:I do dot understand Bill.Bill Spight wrote: It is sente, isn't it?
To find the local territorial count you play out the sente.
OC it is sente but that does not mean that you have to play it to find the territorial count.
Let's take a very simple example
Afterthe move
is sente but looks quite bad. In order to count the local territory will you assume this sente move or will you assume a ko fight?
Result: -4 in 2 plays by White.
Result: +12 in 1 play by Black.
The ko has a mast value when
-4 + 2t = 12 - t, that is, when
t = 5⅓ , and the mast value, m, is
m = 6⅔
The Adkins Principle:
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— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Bill Spight
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Re: This 'n' that
OK, let's at the simple gote, U = {u|-u}, u > 0, to the ko ensemble. U is not shown on the board.
= u
If White plays in the ko corner, Black replies in U when u > 1. That yields a sente sequence with the result, u - 8.
If White plays first in U, then the mast value is -5 - u in gote. Playing first in U dominates when
u - 8 ≥ -5 - u , that is, when
u ≥ 1½
Next, let Black play first.
= u
Note that
gains 1 point at territorial go. 
The result is u - 5 in 1 net Black play.
= u
Note that
gains 1 point at territorial go.
The result is u - 6 in sente.
The play in U dominates when
u - 5 ≥ u - 6 , that is, always.
Last, suppose that Black plays in U first. Then White will play in the top left corner and the result will be u - 8 in sente. Obviously, variation 2 dominates that, as well.
Now to find the mast value of the ko ensemble.
When u > 1½ the mast value of the ko ensemble happens when
u - 5 = -5 - u , that is, when
u = 0 , that is, never.
So let 1½ > u > 1. The the mast value of the ko ensemble occurs when
u - 5 = u - 8, that is, never.
Maybe I have goofed again, but it seems like adding a simple gote to the ko ensemble does not produce a mast value for it. {shrug}
Give me a while and I'll try adding two simple gote to the ko ensemble.
If White plays in the ko corner, Black replies in U when u > 1. That yields a sente sequence with the result, u - 8.
If White plays first in U, then the mast value is -5 - u in gote. Playing first in U dominates when
u - 8 ≥ -5 - u , that is, when
u ≥ 1½
Next, let Black play first.
Note that
The result is u - 5 in 1 net Black play.
Note that
The result is u - 6 in sente.
The play in U dominates when
u - 5 ≥ u - 6 , that is, always.
Last, suppose that Black plays in U first. Then White will play in the top left corner and the result will be u - 8 in sente. Obviously, variation 2 dominates that, as well.
Now to find the mast value of the ko ensemble.
When u > 1½ the mast value of the ko ensemble happens when
u - 5 = -5 - u , that is, when
u = 0 , that is, never.
So let 1½ > u > 1. The the mast value of the ko ensemble occurs when
u - 5 = u - 8, that is, never.
Maybe I have goofed again, but it seems like adding a simple gote to the ko ensemble does not produce a mast value for it. {shrug}
Give me a while and I'll try adding two simple gote to the ko ensemble.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Gérard TAILLE
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Re: This 'n' that
Before analysing your last post I give you my own analysis:
white plays first in the corner:
tenuki
scoreWhiteFirst = -7 + t
Black plays first in the corner and white saves his corner:
tenuki
tenuki
scoreBlackFirstKo = -8 + 2t
Black plays first in the corner and white gives up his corner:
tenuki
tenuki
tenuki
scoreBlackFirstWhiteKilled = +18 - 3t
The three scores are:
scoreWhiteFirst = -7 + t
scoreBlackFirstKo = -8 + 2t
scoreBlackFirstWhiteKilled = +18 - 3t
Obviously scoreBlackFirstKo is not good for white if t > 1.
The two other scores have to be compared:
scoreWhiteFirst = scoreBlackFirstWhiteKilled <=>
-7 + t = +18 - 3t <=>
t = 6¼ and m = -¾
In the last sequence you can argue that
may be omitted because black's ko threat is still available. If it is playable then
scoreBlackFirstWhiteKilledBis = +18 - 2t and
scoreWhiteFirst = scoreBlackFirstWhiteKilledBis <=>
-7 + t = +18 - 2t <=>
t = 8⅓ and m = 1⅓
The miai value is probably somewhere between 6¼ and 8⅓.
white plays first in the corner:
scoreWhiteFirst = -7 + t
Black plays first in the corner and white saves his corner:
scoreBlackFirstKo = -8 + 2t
Black plays first in the corner and white gives up his corner:
scoreBlackFirstWhiteKilled = +18 - 3t
The three scores are:
scoreWhiteFirst = -7 + t
scoreBlackFirstKo = -8 + 2t
scoreBlackFirstWhiteKilled = +18 - 3t
Obviously scoreBlackFirstKo is not good for white if t > 1.
The two other scores have to be compared:
scoreWhiteFirst = scoreBlackFirstWhiteKilled <=>
-7 + t = +18 - 3t <=>
t = 6¼ and m = -¾
In the last sequence you can argue that
scoreBlackFirstWhiteKilledBis = +18 - 2t and
scoreWhiteFirst = scoreBlackFirstWhiteKilledBis <=>
-7 + t = +18 - 2t <=>
t = 8⅓ and m = 1⅓
The miai value is probably somewhere between 6¼ and 8⅓.
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Bill Spight
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Re: This 'n' that
Many thanks, Gérard. 
White has 6 points of territory and has captured 4 stones, for -10, and Black has 1 point of territory and has captured 2 stones, for +3. Result -7 + 2t.

The three scores are:
scoreWhiteFirst = -7 + t
scoreBlackFirstKo = -8 + 2t
scoreBlackFirstWhiteKilled = +18 - 3t
countWhiteFirst = -8 + t
scoreBlackFirstKo = -7 + 2t
scoreBlackFirstWhiteKilled = +18 - 3t
When t > 1 then scoreBlackFirstKo is better for White than countWhiteFirst. That is, in the BlackFirstKo sequence Black has made a mistake or White has made a mistake in the countWhiteFirst sequence.
The temperature of indifference between the WhiteFirst sequence and the BlackFirstWhiteKilled sequence occurs when
-8 + t = +18 - 3t , that is, when
t = 6½.
I think you misremembered that the average value of the top left corner is -5. The average value for the ko ensemble is -5 - 3 = -8. Result: -8 + t.Gérard TAILLE wrote:Before analysing your last post I give you my own analysis:
white plays first in the corner:tenuki
scoreWhiteFirst = -7 + t
Again, your counting seems off by 1.Gérard TAILLE wrote:Black plays first in the corner and white saves his corner:tenuki
tenuki
scoreBlackFirstKo = -8 + 2t
Here we agree on the score.Gérard TAILLE wrote:Black plays first in the corner and white gives up his corner:tenuki
tenuki
tenuki
scoreBlackFirstWhiteKilled = +18 - 3t
The three scores are:
scoreWhiteFirst = -7 + t
scoreBlackFirstKo = -8 + 2t
scoreBlackFirstWhiteKilled = +18 - 3t
That should be, I think,Gérard TAILLE wrote:Obviously scoreBlackFirstKo is not good for white if t > 1.
The two other scores have to be compared:
scoreWhiteFirst = scoreBlackFirstWhiteKilled <=>
-7 + t = +18 - 3t <=>
t = 6¼ and m = -¾
countWhiteFirst = -8 + t
scoreBlackFirstKo = -7 + 2t
scoreBlackFirstWhiteKilled = +18 - 3t
When t > 1 then scoreBlackFirstKo is better for White than countWhiteFirst. That is, in the BlackFirstKo sequence Black has made a mistake or White has made a mistake in the countWhiteFirst sequence.
The temperature of indifference between the WhiteFirst sequence and the BlackFirstWhiteKilled sequence occurs when
-8 + t = +18 - 3t , that is, when
t = 6½.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Gérard TAILLE
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Re: This 'n' that
Thank you for correcting my count Bill.Bill Spight wrote:Many thanks, Gérard.
I think you misremembered that the average value of the top left corner is -5. The average value for the ko ensemble is -5 - 3 = -8. Result: -8 + t.Gérard TAILLE wrote:Before analysing your last post I give you my own analysis:
white plays first in the corner:tenuki
scoreWhiteFirst = -7 + t
Again, your counting seems off by 1.Gérard TAILLE wrote:Black plays first in the corner and white saves his corner:tenuki
tenuki
scoreBlackFirstKo = -8 + 2tWhite has 6 points of territory and has captured 4 stones, for -10, and Black has 1 point of territory and has captured 2 stones, for +3. Result -7 + 2t.
Here we agree on the score.Gérard TAILLE wrote:Black plays first in the corner and white gives up his corner:tenuki
tenuki
tenuki
scoreBlackFirstWhiteKilled = +18 - 3t
The three scores are:
scoreWhiteFirst = -7 + t
scoreBlackFirstKo = -8 + 2t
scoreBlackFirstWhiteKilled = +18 - 3t
That should be, I think,Gérard TAILLE wrote:Obviously scoreBlackFirstKo is not good for white if t > 1.
The two other scores have to be compared:
scoreWhiteFirst = scoreBlackFirstWhiteKilled <=>
-7 + t = +18 - 3t <=>
t = 6¼ and m = -¾
countWhiteFirst = -8 + t
scoreBlackFirstKo = -7 + 2t
scoreBlackFirstWhiteKilled = +18 - 3t
When t > 1 then scoreBlackFirstKo is better for White than countWhiteFirst. That is, in the BlackFirstKo sequence Black has made a mistake or White has made a mistake in the countWhiteFirst sequence.
The temperature of indifference between the WhiteFirst sequence and the BlackFirstWhiteKilled sequence occurs when
-8 + t = +18 - 3t , that is, when
t = 6½.
with the t = 6½ conclusion I am satisfied.
As we can see the situation with a black ko threat is very different. When no black ko threat white will not play in the corner (unless temperature is very low) but with one black ko threat white must play in the corner as soon as temperature drops under t = 6½.
BTW with more than one black ko threat, black is komaster and again white must play in the corner when temperature drops under t = 6½.
Finally with only one ko threat black is "almost" komaster isn't she?
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Bill Spight
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Re: This 'n' that
I am sorry, my statement about one player or other, given the results, having made a mistake, is wrong.Gérard TAILLE wrote:Thank you for correcting my count Bill.Bill Spight wrote:Many thanks, Gérard.
I think you misremembered that the average value of the top left corner is -5. The average value for the ko ensemble is -5 - 3 = -8. Result: -8 + t.Gérard TAILLE wrote:Before analysing your last post I give you my own analysis:
white plays first in the corner:tenuki
scoreWhiteFirst = -7 + t
Again, your counting seems off by 1.Gérard TAILLE wrote:Black plays first in the corner and white saves his corner:tenuki
tenuki
scoreBlackFirstKo = -8 + 2tWhite has 6 points of territory and has captured 4 stones, for -10, and Black has 1 point of territory and has captured 2 stones, for +3. Result -7 + 2t.
Here we agree on the score.Gérard TAILLE wrote:Black plays first in the corner and white gives up his corner:tenuki
tenuki
tenuki
scoreBlackFirstWhiteKilled = +18 - 3t
The three scores are:
scoreWhiteFirst = -7 + t
scoreBlackFirstKo = -8 + 2t
scoreBlackFirstWhiteKilled = +18 - 3t
That should be, I think,Gérard TAILLE wrote:Obviously scoreBlackFirstKo is not good for white if t > 1.
The two other scores have to be compared:
scoreWhiteFirst = scoreBlackFirstWhiteKilled <=>
-7 + t = +18 - 3t <=>
t = 6¼ and m = -¾
countWhiteFirst = -8 + t
scoreBlackFirstKo = -7 + 2t
scoreBlackFirstWhiteKilled = +18 - 3t
When t > 1 then scoreBlackFirstKo is better for White than countWhiteFirst. That is, in the BlackFirstKo sequence Black has made a mistake or White has made a mistake in the countWhiteFirst sequence.
The temperature of indifference between the WhiteFirst sequence and the BlackFirstWhiteKilled sequence occurs when
-8 + t = +18 - 3t , that is, when
t = 6½.
with the t = 6½ conclusion I am satisfied.
As we can see the situation with a black ko threat is very different. When no black ko threat white will not play in the corner (unless temperature is very low) but with one black ko threat white must play in the corner as soon as temperature drops under t = 6½.
BTW with more than one black ko threat, black is komaster and again white must play in the corner when temperature drops under t = 6½.
Finally with only one ko threat black is "almost" komaster isn't she?
-8 + t = +19 - 2t , that is, when
t = 9.
When should
-7 + 2t < +19 - 2t , that is, when
t < 6½.
So, given that assumption, if
The Adkins Principle:
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— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
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Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Bill Spight
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Re: This 'n' that
Our discussion of Gérard's last post has revealed that the question of
filling the ko threat is open with a larger ko ensemble, so let me revisit it when we add a simple gote, U = {u|-u}, u > 0.
= -u
Result: +19 - u + t
There are a number of transpositions to get that result.
= -u
= u
= u
Result when t > 0: u - 8 + 3t
Alternate results after
.
= u
= u
Result when t > 1: u - 7 + 2t
= u
Result when t > 1: u - 6 + t
OC, the best result when Black takes U and t > 1 is the first.
So it looks like, even with the humungous threat, we want to add 3 simple gote to the ko ensemble, U = {u|-u}, V = {v|-v}, and W = {w|-w}, u ≥ v ≥ w > 1.
Result: +19 - u + t
There are a number of transpositions to get that result.
Result when t > 0: u - 8 + 3t
Alternate results after
Result when t > 1: u - 7 + 2t
Result when t > 1: u - 6 + t
OC, the best result when Black takes U and t > 1 is the first.
So it looks like, even with the humungous threat, we want to add 3 simple gote to the ko ensemble, U = {u|-u}, V = {v|-v}, and W = {w|-w}, u ≥ v ≥ w > 1.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.