Life In 19x19

What are the benefits of becoming one of the new European pros? Are they allowed to compete in Asian tournaments? If not, what is the point of becoming a pro in Europe?

Presumably they may play in certain tournaments (and so have access to their prizes) in that others may not play. Presumably they get support or allowances for teaching or support for publishing that other teachers or publishers do not get.

I imagine the biggest privilege is more training. Some students already went to China for teaching, and this will presumably help raise the level of Go in Europe.

RobertJasiek wrote:Presumably they may play in certain tournaments (and so have access to their prizes) in that others may not play. Presumably they get support or allowances for teaching or support for publishing that other teachers or publishers do not get.

Is that not specified somewhere? I remember raising the very same question when the whole system was "revealed". Can't believe there is no clear answers by now.

What special privileges do other Europeans with pro status get? For example Dinerchtein, Shikshina, Taranu? These qualified for pro status through the Asian go associations but they seem to work/live in Europe and, as far as I can see, earn most of their living from teaching rather than playing in Korean or Japanese tournaments.

The only European who is a real "qualified" pro is Taranu( and Hans Pietsch, RIP), the others are so called "political" pros who could not pass the exam but were awarded pro status for their efforts/to support european go.

Backpack wrote:The only European who is a real "qualified" pro is Taranu( and Hans Pietsch, RIP), the others are so called "political" pros who could not pass the exam but were awarded pro status for their efforts/to support european go.

gowan wrote:What special privileges do other Europeans with pro status get? For example Dinerchtein, Shikshina, Taranu? These qualified for pro status through the Asian go associations but they seem to work/live in Europe and, as far as I can see, earn most of their living from teaching rather than playing in Korean or Japanese tournaments.

Interesting points and interesting questions. However, the OP seems to be asking about the pros that will be certified by the EGF in the near future. There was a thread about it some time ago. The benefit of becoming an EGF pro seems unclear at this point because they seem to be trying to figure out what they want the system to be, but tournaments that will be open only to EGF pros seems to be part of the rough sketch. So RJ is correct in that regard. The old thread has a link to a BGA document saying as much.

I guess that eventually the EGF will put up a webpage that outlines the Grand Slam and Bonus Point tournament circuit. For now though, there is no easily accessible information, and you need to check out the contract.

Speak up, pros!

The overwhelming majority of go professionals in any country are what the Japanese call "lesson pros" - teachers, and not in the sense of Kitani training a stable of future champions. Their daily bread is earned by teaching little kids, guys trying to relax after a hard day at the office, women who do lunch and go instead of flower arranging, and so on. A lucky few can coach those with real talent. The number who can be matadors and get in the ring with real bulls can be counted in tens worldwide.

It therefore stands to reason that, until a blue moon comes along, all European (or American) pros will have to be teachers. In that light, their almost total lack of engagement with their potential clientele baffles me. L19 offers them maybe the best chance to engage.

Instead they prefer to act like mountebanks peddling the three-card trick on the pavement, hoping that some sucker will walk by. Totally unprofessional.

John Fairbairn wrote:Speak up, pros!
...
Instead they prefer to act like mountebanks peddling the three-card trick on the pavement, hoping that some sucker will walk by. Totally unprofessional.

The new European pros are not selected yet.

Nice point, John, very valid. I think, though, that most teenagers who enter the world of go and aspire to be pro do so because they have a vision of being one of those "matadors" you describe. It's hard to believe that your average teen embarks on this journey of becoming a pro so that one can teach amateurs during their lunch breaks. I'm sure this is as true of teens (or younger) in Japan, China, Korea, as it is for the USA or Europe. So I don't think they are being unprofessional, exactly, but perhaps living in a fantasy world that is unlikely to ever actually materialize.

John Fairbairn wrote:Speak up, pros!
...
It therefore stands to reason that, until a blue moon comes along, all European (or American) pros will have to be teachers. In that light, their almost total lack of engagement with their potential clientele baffles me. L19 offers them maybe the best chance to engage.

Instead they prefer to act like mountebanks peddling the three-card trick on the pavement, hoping that some sucker will walk by. Totally unprofessional.

A bit harsh, John.

Perhaps these prospective pros haven't yet accepted their, umm, fate. And until they do, perhaps they will focus on learning, rather than teaching.

Out of interest, do you think Asian insei should also follow your dictates for professionals?

Are you condemning the individuals or the very idea of western pro systems? I am not asking this sarcastically or antagonistically, but would just like to better understand your beef.

When a European pro did speak up on L19 look at the welcome she received from our lovely admins.
viewtopic.php?f=16&p=161573

It should be ok for professional or high-dan players to advertise their lessons, books or otherwise in a special section in the forum.

Totally agree. Ultimately, of course, it's the site owner's choice, but on the assumption he is providing it in order to help the spread of go, I think he should bear in mind that one of the greatest problems the western world has faced for a long time, even before internet days, is a lack of outlets for advertising. Allowing that would do immense good. Even asking for payment would be OK, I think.

I would include advertising of tournaments under the same heading.

My impression is that the current site owner does have a philanthropic view on this - a great big thank you. Some admins may have a more myopic view. Obviously advertisers should exercise moderation and/or give something back in return.

Marcel Grünauer wrote:

Uberdude wrote:When a European pro did speak up on L19 look at the welcome she received from our lovely admins.
http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... 6&p=161573

This is absurd. And the thread is even locked.

It should be ok for professional or high-dan players to advertise their lessons, books or otherwise in a special section in the forum.

What's next?

* A ban on John or Robert advertising their books?
* A ban on people saying they've taken lessons from player X?
* A ban on pointing out Go clubs or bookshops in Japan?
* A ban on "look at the Go board I bought from X"?
* A ban on "new version of iOS app X"?

How is this different?

Let's not turn L19 into KGS.

Yup, I think the locking and editing was way over the top, but the post by Shikshina was also kind of "a little too obvious." There's advertising and "advertising." It's a fine line from one to the other, though.