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How would you handle this pincer?
Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 11:37 pm
by chef
Thanks to this thread (
http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=7273) by lovelove (which rocks!), I tried playing the pincer joseki, the better way than what I was doing before, like this
$$B
$$ -----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . 2 . 3 . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . 6 , .
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . .
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . 2 . 3 . . .
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . 6 , .
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . .
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
But what do you do when there's a stone on the star like this?
$$W
$$ -----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . 1 . 2 . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . 1 . 2 . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
My two thoughts are how would I handle that and also should I have even bothered doing a kakari between the two stone and maybe opt for the other side of the stone.
The reason I ask is because I played this game. I won despite the beginning, but that pincer was UG-LEE!!! Actually the whole beginning was ugly
(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[6.50]TM[0]OT[10x60 byo-yomi]
PW[bbwlover]PB[kgbest]WR[9k]BR[9k]DT[2014-06-10]PC[The KGS Go Server at
http://www.gokgs.com/]RE[W+Resign]
;B[pp]BL[60]OB[10]C[kgbest [9k\]: hi
kgbest [9k\]: thanks
bbwlover [9k\]: hi
]
;W[pd]WL[60]OW[10]
;B[dp]BL[60]OB[10]
;W[dd]WL[60]OW[10]
;B[ip]BL[60]OB[10]
;W[nq]WL[60]OW[10]
;B[lq]BL[60]OB[10]
;W[no]WL[60]OW[10]
;B[pn]BL[60]OB[10]
;W[kp]WL[60]OW[10]
;B[kq]BL[60]OB[10]
;W[jp]WL[60]OW[10]
;B[jq]BL[60]OB[10]
;W[io]WL[60]OW[10]
;B[hp]BL[60]OB[10]
;W[fp]WL[60]OW[10]
;B[gr]BL[60]OB[10]
;W[er]WL[60]OW[10]
;B[dr]BL[60]OB[10]
;W[fn]WL[60]OW[10]
;B[ho]BL[60]OB[10]
;W[in]WL[60]OW[10]
;B[hn]BL[60]OB[10]
;W[hm]WL[60]OW[10]
;B[im]BL[60]OB[10]
;W[jm]WL[60]OW[10]
;B[il]BL[60]OB[10]
;W[gm]WL[60]OW[10]
;B[lp]BL[60]OB[10]
;W[ko]WL[60]OW[10]
;B[ln]BL[60]OB[10]
;W[lo]WL[60]OW[10]
;B[mo]BL[60]OB[10]
;W[kn]WL[60]OW[10]
;B[np]BL[60]OB[10]
;W[mn]WL[60]OW[10]
;B[mp]BL[60]OB[10]
;W[lm]WL[60]OW[10]
;B[oq]BL[60]OB[10]
;W[cn]WL[60]OW[10]
;B[bp]BL[60]OB[10]
;W[eq]WL[60]OW[10]
;B[dq]BL[60]OB[10]
;W[br]WL[60]OW[10]
;B[co]BL[60]OB[10]
;W[dn]WL[60]OW[10]
;B[bn]BL[60]OB[10]
;W[bm]WL[60]OW[10]
;B[ao]BL[60]OB[10]
;W[cq]WL[60]OW[10]
;B[cr]BL[60]OB[10]
;W[bq]WL[60]OW[10]
;B[cp]BL[60]OB[10]
;W[am]WL[60]OW[7]
;B[an]BL[60]OB[10]
;W[di]WL[60]OW[7])
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:22 am
by EdLee
chef wrote:But what do you do when there's a stone on the star like this?
$$W
$$ -----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . a . . 1 . 2 . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . b c . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . a . . 1 . 2 . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . b c . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Hi chef, it depends on the rest of the board. Locally, W's choices include (a), (b), (c), and others.
In your game, you can consider jumping to 3-3 at R3 for
.
In your game,
turning at H5 makes a powerful shape for B, and a kind of broken shape for you.
Re: How would you handle this pincer?
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 3:28 am
by Hushfield
Hi chef,
The diagram you posted is a bit different from the in-game variant (the black stone already in place is one line further, at a in the diagram below). Concerning your options, I agree with EdLee that you can either choose between invading the corner at 3-3 or going for a double approach. In your game, the double approach seems more risky, because black already has a few stones in place, and will welcome complicated fights.
There's something else, however. When I look at this diagram, I think black 2 is a bit of a mistake.
$$W
$$ -----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . 1 . 2 . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X a
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . 1 . 2 . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X a
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Something like this would be a more severe way of attacking:
$$W
$$ -----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . 2 1 . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . 3 . . . X a
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . 2 1 . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . 3 . . . X a
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
Even with the stone at a in the game, I still think white got off the hook. Settling the stone quickly by invading the corner seems the best way to punish black for his lackluster attack.
Re: How would you handle this pincer?
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 3:42 am
by Uberdude
As others said 3-3 is good to settle. Jump out is no good as the press is not effective as black already has that 4th line stone. See
viewtopic.php?p=157576#p157576 for when jump is okay.
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 4:08 am
by EdLee
Hi chef, for example:
$$W
$$ -----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . 1 . 2 . . 5
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . .
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . 1 . 2 . . 5
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . .
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]
If W thinks a pincer in the
direction (say,
)
is useful for W, then W can jump out with
--
for example, W already has a stone upper right corner.
As always, we must look at the whole board to decide.
Re: How would you handle this pincer?
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 4:57 am
by chef
I don't think I'd try a double approach at the moment, since I haven't a clue how to do it, but as far as how the board looked, the SGF I posted was the whole game up until that point.
Re: How would you handle this pincer?
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 1:10 pm
by skydyr
My immediate question is why white chose to approach from the inside instead of the outside for the initial corner approach in the game.
isn't some amazing wonder move, it's just a san-ren-sei like formation that wants another move to accomplish the same thing.
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 3:58 pm
by EdLee
skydyr wrote:My immediate question is why white chose to approach from the inside instead of the outside
The usual suspects include:
- Deep analysis
- Mood
- Curiosity/trial-and-error
- No particular reason/arbitrary
- Habit/instinct
- Jealousy
Re: How would you handle this pincer?
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 5:56 pm
by chef
skydyr wrote:My immediate question is why white chose to approach from the inside instead of the outside for the initial corner approach in the game.
isn't some amazing wonder move, it's just a san-ren-sei like formation that wants another move to accomplish the same thing.
Would that be considered a bad move? My thoughts are that giving this wall to your opponent would be a difficult thing to deal with.
$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 2 . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 2 . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 6:37 pm
by EdLee
chef wrote:$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 2 . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 2 . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Hi chef, the above
is not very good, either -- the 2-space-2-space shape is thin and leaves lots of aji for W.
Just the keima reply is probably a better combination with the
and
stones:
$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . # . . . . . B . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |-
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . # . . . . . B . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |-[/go]
Also, in your game, B did not have the middle star point, as Hushfield already pointed out:
$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , Y . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , Y . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]
chef wrote:Would that be considered a bad move?
is very normal, and a good move.
chef wrote:My thoughts are that giving this wall to your opponent would be a difficult thing to deal with.
First misconception: That's not a wall.
What would be very beneficial for you is tons of experience: play
in lots of games as W
(and experience
as B) to find out what actually happens; review, rinse and repeat.
Re: How would you handle this pincer?
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 10:45 pm
by schawipp
In the game, b has a nice move at
to connect with his two center stones.
Re: How would you handle this pincer?
Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 2:40 pm
by Unusedname
chef wrote:I don't think I'd try a double approach at the moment, since I haven't a clue how to do it, but as far as how the board looked, the SGF I posted was the whole game up until that point.
I used to feel this way too!
But it ended up being pretty simple (So far)
It usually results with me getting the corner without being sealed in.
And then I have aji for later on the other side.