Life In 19x19

I was thinking, and what is the line of Intermediate and Beginner? I know Beginner is beginning the game, but I've heard long time players be considered beginner? So to what strength or rank is Beginner and Intermediate player start and finish? Would it be 20k, or even more far fetched, as to 15k? I've heard people say that all DDKs are Beginners, but I've heard that from 15k and on you're Intermediate. If anyone could clarify that would be nice.

There is no answer. For the most part you are what you think you are.

You'll be happier if you find it doesn't matter. In a while the idea that going from 15k to 14k signifying anything important will seem ludicrous to you.

In Japanese, shodan (1 dan) can be thought of as 'beginning level'.

Amateur 1 dan can be thought of as about 6 or 7 stones from pro.

Some people consider levels lower than amateur 6 dan to be beginners.
(So most of us here would be considered beginners.)

As others have suggested, your mileage may vary.

I guess from EGF perspective. 20kyu-15 kyu is a beginner.
15-5 kyu is a solid player. 5kyu-1kyu is a good club player and dan players up to 5 dan are considered strong club players.

5dan-7dan(8dan) are top amateurs and after that you have pros.

This is a crude estimation.

In my opinion 20-30k is beginner mostly because those ranks are superfluous and people seem to quickly go through them with little effort after they've learned the rules. After that, I would consider 19-10k novice, 9 to 1k intermediate, 1-4d expert, and 5d+ master.

Words like beginner and novice can have a feeling of how long the player has been playing not only their strength. There was a side 13x13 tournament at the Oxford tournament a few years ago for 15k and weaker and a long-term 16k didn't like it being called the "Novices Tournament".

I only feel that way from beginner, not novice.

When I was 18k, I thought I was no longer a beginner.

Now I am around 11k, been playing off and on about 4 years, and I think I am just a beginner after all...

I don't think descriptions in terms of ranks are good. I'd say a beginner (novice, newbie) would be someone who does not have a grasp of the rules solid enough to play reliably without supervision. If we measure from top pro perspective we are all beginners. The great Cho Chikun once said that he is in awe of the vastness of go. Maybe he sees himself as a beginner. And Zen Buddhism advises us that keeping a "beginner's mind" (初心 shoshin) is important.

Abyssinica wrote:In my opinion 20-30k is beginner mostly because those ranks are superfluous and people seem to quickly go through them with little effort after they've learned the rules. After that, I would consider 19-10k novice, 9 to 1k intermediate, 1-4d expert, and 5d+ master.

I agree. Essentially the same as given by Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_%28game ... nd_ratings

EdLee wrote:In Japanese, shodan (1 dan) can be thought of as 'beginning level'.

I don't think I've seen anyone think this before.

A beginner is someone who will occasionally or even often make a mistake against a basic rule. For example, the basic rule that in a common fight between chains, the one who has more liberties wins, so it is needless to start such a fight (unless intended as a sacrifice). You will find a surprising number of dan ranked players who still make such mistakes, so it is reasonable to say that even most dan players are beginners in this respect.

Go is a strange field for expertise though. You'll find many 6 kyu players who can tell reasonable stories about joseki, fuseki, shape, direction and other heuristics. You'll find players who are very strong at life and death and can come back from an otherwise hopeless opening. There are those who can replay games of Shusaku by heart but who consistently spoil 2 points in a basic endgame situation.

The variables of expertise are plenty. As I do not cease to repeat, the basics should get more attention by beginners, but since they haven't, we find varieties of "beginner-ness" in a wide distribution of ranks.

oren wrote:

In Japanese, shodan (1 dan) can be thought of as 'beginning level'.

I don't think I've seen anyone think this before.

That is the literal meaning of shodan:
sho = 初 = beginning/starting.
dan = 段 = level/stage/phase/degree.

Definition of shodan:

http://m.kotobank.jp/word/初段

１ 最初の段階。 ( 1. Beginning level. )

See also Shodan, Wikipedia: "literally meaning 'beginning degree' "

In the traditional martial arts at least, it's common sense
that only by the time one has reached shodan,
that one has some very rudimentary understanding of the fundamentals,
and therefore one is at a stage — a beginning stage —
to embark on the more serious study.

I forget which pro it was, and I forget the exact quote, but the gist of it was that in his 80's he felt that he was beginning to understand the game.