Influencial Opening?
Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:44 pm
What is the best opening to play an influence game? And is the follow up too difficult for me?
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Influencial Opening?
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Re: Influencial Opening?
Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:51 pm
A 9 stone handicap?
Re: Influencial Opening?
Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:56 pm
High stones give influence: 4th and 5th line. Here are a few ideas if you need inspiration 
Maybe more seriously, you can play any kind of opening with an eye towards developing influence, and you probably should. You might not call an opening like this influence oriented:
But you can still play it in a way that makes influence.
Maybe more seriously, you can play any kind of opening with an eye towards developing influence, and you probably should. You might not call an opening like this influence oriented:
But you can still play it in a way that makes influence.
Re: Influencial Opening?
Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 6:32 pm
Go seigen's version of the best sanrensei:
Re: Influencial Opening?
Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:30 pm
If you REALLY want influence, start with moves on the 6th to 10th lines. However, as a beginner, you can just start with the 4-5 stone.
Re: Influencial Opening?
Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:21 am
Thanks for all of the different openings! I've been wanting to play a more influence-based game!
Re: Influencial Opening?
Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 6:51 am
WeakPlayer wrote:And is the follow up too difficult for me?
To be honest, it's not a good idea for player of your strength to play an influence oriented game. The reason is that you have to be very strong at attacking and killing. When your opponent decides to invade or reduce your moyo, if you cannot attack him and either A) kill him or B) make profit then you will invariably be behind on territory. You might find that you get better results in your games if you play for solid points rather than influence.
Re: Influencial Opening?
Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:48 am
But go back to Dr. Straw's response.
The question was "how to learn about using influence" and that may indeed be by playing high handicap games against a strong enough opponent. Not necessarily just nine stones, but anything between nine and four.
Handicap stones don't actually give any real territory. What they give is an advantage in influence. OK, to advance to a lower number of stones you have to learn to take advantage of the influence provided by the number you are currently at.
The question was "how to learn about using influence" and that may indeed be by playing high handicap games against a strong enough opponent. Not necessarily just nine stones, but anything between nine and four.
Handicap stones don't actually give any real territory. What they give is an advantage in influence. OK, to advance to a lower number of stones you have to learn to take advantage of the influence provided by the number you are currently at.
Re: Influencial Opening?
Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 9:20 am
moboy78 wrote:WeakPlayer wrote:And is the follow up too difficult for me?
To be honest, it's not a good idea for player of your strength to play an influence oriented game. The reason is that you have to be very strong at attacking and killing. When your opponent decides to invade or reduce your moyo, if you cannot attack him and either A) kill him or B) make profit then you will invariably be behind on territory. You might find that you get better results in your games if you play for solid points rather than influence.
I beg to differ. The reason is that his opponents will be very weak at reducing, invading, and living. More beginners err by playing for territory than by playing for influence. (Edit: Also, they will often play too slowly, enabling an influence player to take the lead.) It is never too early to learn how to use influence.
Re: Influencial Opening?
Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 10:01 am
Bill Spight wrote:moboy78 wrote:WeakPlayer wrote:And is the follow up too difficult for me?
To be honest, it's not a good idea for player of your strength to play an influence oriented game. The reason is that you have to be very strong at attacking and killing. When your opponent decides to invade or reduce your moyo, if you cannot attack him and either A) kill him or B) make profit then you will invariably be behind on territory. You might find that you get better results in your games if you play for solid points rather than influence.
I beg to differ. The reason is that his opponents will be very weak at reducing, invading, and living. More beginners err by playing for territory than by playing for influence. (Edit: Also, they will often play too slowly, enabling an influence player to take the lead.) It is never too early to learn how to use influence.
You make an interesting point, but, what you fail to take into account is that DDKs are weak at Go in general. Just because his opponent plays slowly, who's to say he'll recognize those moves as slow and play a big one. DDKs will constantly follow you around the board, and when they do tenuki there's usually some weakness left behind in their position. And DDKs are usually just as bad at attacking as they are at reducing, invading, and living. I would also like to say that there's nothing wrong with him playing an influence oriented game if he wants to, but it is a risky strategy for all go players, not just DDKs.
Re: Influencial Opening?
Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 11:18 am
You make an interesting point, but, what you fail to take into account is that DDKs are weak at Go in general. Just because his opponent plays slowly, who's to say he'll recognize those moves as slow and play a big one. DDKs will constantly follow you around the board, and when they do tenuki there's usually some weakness left behind in their position. And DDKs are usually just as bad at attacking as they are at reducing, invading, and living. I would also like to say that there's nothing wrong with him playing an influence oriented game if he wants to, but it is a risky strategy for all go players, not just DDKs.
It seems to me that this is precisely what Bill has taken into account. The way I read the quote is that the underlying assumption is that Black is mainly concerned with trying to win. Bill's assumption, which I think is the right one, is that the DDK should be mainly concerned with trying to learn, and for that using the influence of handicap stones is quite possibly the best way forward. Rather than "influence" think of "connectedness". The handicap stones are relatively easy to connect, especially at high handicaps, and that gives the floundering weak player something to work with in terms of overall perception of the board. Grasping that overall perception for the first time may be what gets rid of the first D in DDK. Grasping that handicap stones are there to help you learn and not to win will get rid of the second D.
Re: Influencial Opening?
Posted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 11:28 am
I agree with you John, but I was under the impression we were talking about openings in even games, not handicap ones.
Re: Influencial Opening?
Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:36 am
WeakPlayer wrote:And is the follow up too difficult for me?
moboy78 wrote:
To be honest, it's not a good idea for player of your strength to play an influence oriented game. The reason is that you have to be very strong at attacking and killing. When your opponent decides to invade or reduce your moyo, if you cannot attack him and either A) kill him or B) make profit then you will invariably be behind on territory. You might find that you get better results in your games if you play for solid points rather than influence.
Bill Spight wrote:
I beg to differ. The reason is that his opponents will be very weak at reducing, invading, and living. More beginners err by playing for territory than by playing for influence. (Edit: Also, they will often play too slowly, enabling an influence player to take the lead.) It is never too early to learn how to use influence.
moboy78 wrote:You make an interesting point, but, what you fail to take into account is that DDKs are weak at Go in general.
That is precisely the point I am making. At a high level you cannot say that playing for influence is better or worse than playing for territory. Why should it be better to play for territory at a low level?
Perhaps playing for territory is easier for DDKs to understand. My impression is that DDKs tend to play for territory, probably for that reason. It does not follow that DDKs who play for influence should play for territory instead. There is a process of self selection here. DDKs who play for influence do so because that makes sense to them, it is easier for them to understand.
Just because his opponent plays slowly, who's to say he'll recognize those moves as slow and play a big one.
Slow play is in general territory oriented play. Influence players, even DDKs, tend to develop quickly.
DDKs will constantly follow you around the board, and when they do tenuki there's usually some weakness left behind in their position.
As an influence oriented DDK I did not follow my opponents around the board. I did leave weaknesses behind, and I usually paid the price. C'est la vie.
Edit: Another point, related to leaving weaknesses behind, is that of sacrifice. Sacrifice usually produces influence, and an influence player will not shy away from sacrificing stones. Grabbing stones is a frequent mistake of DDKs, one which a DDK who plays for influence can take advantage of. When I left weaknesses behind as a DDK, and those weaknesses were attacked, I often played to sacrifice some stones (preferably with sente).
Re: Influencial Opening?
Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:46 am
When I was a ddk who played for influence, I had an Ippoji style.
Re: Influencial Opening?
Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:47 am
John Fairbairn wrote:The way I read the quote is that the underlying assumption is that Black is mainly concerned with trying to win. Bill's assumption, which I think is the right one, is that the DDK should be mainly concerned with trying to learn, and for that using the influence of handicap stones is quite possibly the best way forward.
John, I do think that DDKs should be more concerned with learning than with winning, and I do think that playing for influence is a good way to learn. When I see two DDKs patiently and politely plodding along, each adding to their secure territory two space extension by two space extension, I wonder how they are ever going to learn anything. But I also think that playing for influence is just as good a strategy when DDK faces DDK as when dan faces dan.