Life In 19x19

I've been playing go for around 2-3 weeks. I started learning like 3 weeks ago and have been playing around 1 or 2 games every day. The person who introduced me to the game was around a 10 kyu and we played for around a week. After that week I had to return home (I was visiting him) and have been playing go online. I noticed a huge improvement in my play from my first 3 games to some of my later ones against my teacher. However ever since I left my teacher and started playing online I feel like my growth has stagnated. I feel like I'm just as weak now as I was a week and a half ago. I keep getting slaughtered nearly every game I play. I have heard of the proverb "lose the first 100 games as quickly as possible", but I don't feel like I'm learning from my games. I feel like if anything I'm going to have to lose 1000 games before I even become a playable opponent. I was wondering if there are any strategies to learning go for beginners that can help me improve my game. I found lots of guides on how single digit kyus can improve their play, but nearly none on how a beginner can improve his game (other than the advice of playing as many games as possible). I would say my biggest problem is what to do in the beginning and how to respond to attacks properly. I though about studying fuseki and joseki, but other people told me to hold that off until I'm at least a double digit kyu. If you have any advice on what I should study and can do aside from playing as many games as possible to learn, please offer it to me. I currently can only play go online and don't have access to anybody in real life to play (I prefer playing in person though). I'm honestly tired of getting murdered by strangers on the net. I don't mind losing, but I hate losing when its by over 100 points.

As cliche as it may sound, play more games If you've only been playing for 2-3 weeks, chances are a lot of the more basic things aren't fully engrained in your mind as yet, and playing will help you remember or notice them. Also, for the time being, try not to play to win so much as to learn. What happens if you try this move, or if you try and make a group over there? Failing is fine, because you need to find out where the limits are, and you can only do that if you test them. Don't worry too much about blunders either, except to look for them in the future. Missing things you thought you knew is inevitable, but it becomes less frequent with time. That said, even professionals put their own stones into atari by accident, or make similar mistakes, so you're in august company when you do it too.

It's also helpful if you get your games reviewed from time to time, which you can do by posting them here. That will help you know when you're on the right track, or if you have some misconceptions about what you should be doing at a certain point. In addition, a lot of people seem to benefit from playing games on smaller boards, like 9x9, since a game is over faster and it's easier to see how the game develops from early positions to the endgame as well as how certain moves work or don't.

Many of the players on here would be happy to give you a teaching game, I'm sure. I myself am occasionally on OGS, DGS, and KGS, so feel free to ask me if you see me there.

I won't lie to you though: the first few weeks or more of playing go can be frustrating, because it takes a bit of time to figure out what you're doing wrong before you can start doing it right. When I first learned to play, I played for a month or two and then gave it up for a few years. However, once you get past the starting hump, it can also be very rewarding. You can find yourself improving by leaps and bounds over people who used to be better than you, or quickly knocking down the handicap stones you take against someone you know. And the better you get, the deeper you see, the more fascinating go gets.

You would probably be amazed at how much you have learned if you could just make a list.

Don't worry about it. You have only been playing a few days so you cannot be expected to have seen many things too often. It takes many repetitions to learn something new. You'll get there. Just have patience and come back and report on your progress when you have been playing for three months.

I second skydyr and DrStraw's comments. Catch me on KGS sometime, and I'll be happy to play a teaching game or review one of your games.

I especially like skydyr's suggestion to focus on learning, rather than winning. It isn't that you shouldn't care about winning--you should always try to win. But, at least for me, if I say to myself "my main goal is to learn something from this game" I enjoy the game more and, ironically, I usually play better (that is, I'm more likely to win).

If you find yourself enjoying certain study methods, go for it. For example, if you like books, maybe pick up a book like In the Beginning or Opening Theory Made Easy. It is true that, as a beginner, it isn't important to study the opening, and there will be a lot you don't understand, but they may help you feel more confident in the opening.

Finally, I can virtually guarantee you that, if you keep playing and trying to improve, sometime within the next several weeks, some things will just start to "click," and you will see clear improvement. Playing go is especially fun during those times.

Thanks for the responses. Despite feeling frustrated sometimes, I keep coming back for more games. I was mainly worried that there might have been a more efficient way to learn that I was missing out on. Also I completely understand what guys mean when you mentioned deriving more enjoyment by telling yourself that you are playing to learn rather than to win. I was sort of frustrated because on online-go.com (what is the abbreviation for that site?) I had a bad losing streak against people that were my kyu level or a bit lower that were wiping the floor with me. When I face people around my level I tend to get a bit more competitive, but for now I'll just focus on learning. Also I suppose this means that I'm not quite a 21k yet even if that's my current ranking.

Zalor wrote:Thanks for the responses. Despite feeling frustrated sometimes, I keep coming back for more games. I was mainly worried that there might have been a more efficient way to learn that I was missing out on. Also I completely understand what guys mean when you mentioned deriving more enjoyment by telling yourself that you are playing to learn rather than to win. I was sort of frustrated because on online-go.com (what is the abbreviation for that site?) I had a bad losing streak against people that were my kyu level or a bit lower that were wiping the floor with me. When I face people around my level I tend to get a bit more competitive, but for now I'll just focus on learning. Also I suppose this means that I'm not quite a 21k yet even if that's my current ranking.

If you have only been playing for a couple of week then the highlighted statement is meaningless. There is so much random variation in the play of a beginner that you can vary 9 stones within a single game, as can your opponents. So until you have a lot of games under your belt the results are in no way a reflection of ability. Just play and enjoy - and learn.

There's also good introductory videos on YouTube - try taking a look at nick sibicky's lectures if you have questions about particular parts if the game (opening, endgame, where to play etc). Also as a beginner I found senseis library very helpful for random bits of advice/definitions.

Zalor wrote: because on online-go.com (what is the abbreviation for that site?)

OGS=Online-Go.Som

_S=Server

- Play.
- Learn from your games.
- Learn from players' advice.
- Learn from books for double digit kyus.

You need two skills:
- tactical reading
- strategic knowledge

If you are much weaker at either skill, improve especially on it.

The greater problem can be an assessment of your absolute strength in comparison to your opponents. If you were, say 20 ranks weaker than your opponents, you would of course lose every game by 100 points. So you need to find out whether you are about 40 or 20 kyu.

As soon as you roughly know your absolute rank, you can read books suitable for your level. For related recommendations, please ask in the Books forum. I have yet to see webpages coming close to books with respect to teaching knowledge for beginners.

Good advice by players or from books can do wonders if you play enough and can related the advice to your own games.

Hi Zalor

...but I don't feel like I'm learning from my games.

Well... I play for less then a year, so I'm not that far your feeling...
but... Winning or losing a game is really not important to me.
That said, learning from a losing games is a key point, that help me to accept a defeat (so either I win the game / or I learn something) we can see that as a Miai situation .

But that's not fun if you don't know how to learn from a game that you lose.

So here are a few ideas (that I did for myself)...
Maybe you allready know some of them.

1. Review your game

1.1 - take time to do a self review of the game, I'm sure you will spot a few things from yourself as it seems that we are stonger while not playing...
Here are thing you can do by your self :
Try to recongnize these four shapes
- tsuke [edit]no... it's narabi, thx bill for the correction[/edit]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ . . . .
$$ . X X .
$$ . . . .[/go]

- tobi

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ . . . . .
$$ . X . X .
$$ . . . . .[/go]

- keima

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ . . . . .
$$ . X . . .
$$ . . . X .
$$ . . . .[/go]

- kosumi

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ . . . .
$$ . X . .
$$ . . X .
$$ . . . .[/go]

And maybe these too :

- Bamboo join
- Tiger mouth
- Elephant eye

The first step is just to recognize them in a game...

Then try to find broken shapes or bad shape in your play
for exmaple :

The ripped keima
The ripped Tobi
see (http://senseis.xmp.net/?LameDuGo#toc3)


1.2 - Post the game here - there are really nice people who can comment your game... (even if it is a really bad game... I would say the worst it is, the most you will learn from it)
this forum can show sgf file, which is very handy.


2. Learning

2.1 Find a nice book and follow it
2.2 Learn these BasicInstinct
2.3 Learn the ladder and the net
2.3 learn the "two spaces base"

3. Be sure to keep having fun !

3.1 Watch videos (BadukMovies for example, or/and Hikaru no go... )
3.2 Watch game from other people (even game from people that are just a bit stronger then you)
3.3 Try to find friend on the internet so that you play people that you "somehow know"...

skydyr wrote:a lot of people seem to benefit from playing games on smaller boards, like 9x9, since a game is over faster and it's easier to see how the game develops from early positions to the endgame as well as how certain moves work or don't.

This really worked for me. Simple things like what shapes can easily be cut, when a stone can be killed in a single move, ways of reducing liberties and knowing when there is a pressing need to defend, how to cope with the edge of the board - losing 9x9 games was the fastest way I found to get those into my head.

I play as many 9x9 ladder games against stronger players on OGS as I can get!

It would be helpful to see one of your games to see what level of beginner you are. If you are still struggling to spot ataris then for that you just need to play games, but once a bit beyond that I think reading some beginner books (e.g. Second Book of Go) and doing easy problems (e.g. Graded Go Problems For Beginners) is helpful to give some guidance if you feel you are just flailing around aimlessly with no idea what you should be trying to do. Try to spot patterns that keep cropping up in your games. As some starters:

1.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Black to play, can you capture the marked stone?
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . , . . . , . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . . Q X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . , . . . , . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]

2.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Now on 2nd line?
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . , . . . , . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . , . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . , . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . . Q X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]

3.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B How about now?
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . , . . . , . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . , . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . , . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . . Q X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]

4.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B On 3rd line like this?
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . , . . . , . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . , . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . . , . Q X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]

5.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Or this?
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . , . . . , . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . , . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . . , . Q X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]

6.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B What if we lose a liberty?
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . , . . . , . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . , . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . . , . Q X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]

7.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Or go the 4th line?
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . , . . . , . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . . Q X X . . |
$$ | . . , . . . , . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]

Answers:



8. Or in the endgame, if black 1 is white 2 ok?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . , . X O , . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 2 . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]

9. How about now?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . , . X O , . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 1 2 . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]

10. Is 2 ok now?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . , . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 1 2 . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]

Answers

Hi! Welcome to the game! There's a lot of good stuff for beginners above me in this thread.

Another item to look at, though, is how you like to learn. Some of us here on L19 are pretty heavy into learning through study (problems, game reviews, theory, etc). If you find that enjoyable, more power to you! Others (like myself) take a more wandering approach to improvement. I do some review of my games, and I occasionally look at problems, but for the most part I simply play games. It's certainly not the FASTEST way to improve, and I have a ton of bad habits in how I play, but I absolutely love the game, and I'm still improving (even if it's slowly). I suspect, even if I wasn't improving, I'd still play and enjoy the game.

Find what you enjoy doing, and do it. Improvement will come.

Zalor wrote:I've been playing go for around 2-3 weeks. I started learning like 3 weeks ago and have been playing around 1 or 2 games every day. The person who introduced me to the game was around a 10 kyu and we played for around a week. After that week I had to return home (I was visiting him) and have been playing go online. I noticed a huge improvement in my play from my first 3 games to some of my later ones against my teacher. However ever since I left my teacher and started playing online I feel like my growth has stagnated. I feel like I'm just as weak now as I was a week and a half ago.

That's an illusion. In fact, at this stage you encounter new situations in every game and learn something about them, whether you win or lose the game.

I keep getting slaughtered nearly every game I play. I have heard of the proverb "lose the first 100 games as quickly as possible", but I don't feel like I'm learning from my games. I feel like if anything I'm going to have to lose 1000 games before I even become a playable opponent.

Yes, that can certainly be discouraging. The answer is to take handicaps. The proper handicap is enough so that you have a 50-50 chance of winning. That is also good for learning, as it means that the problems you face will be challenging without being too difficult. One thing. You will be learning so quickly that you should change your handicap against the same opponent after nearly every game. Online rating systems are not sensitive enough to do that. Make some friends to play with.

I was wondering if there are any strategies to learning go for beginners that can help me improve my game. I found lots of guides on how single digit kyus can improve their play, but nearly none on how a beginner can improve his game (other than the advice of playing as many games as possible).

There are some good introductory books, but really, playing games is the most efficient way to learn at your level, even if it does not feel that way. One thing I can recommend is to play on small boards, such as the 9x9. Games are quicker and the problems you face are smaller in scope. Ask for a teaching game where you take 9 stones on the 9x9. If you win, move up to 8 stones.

Another idea is to play the capture game, aka atari go. It is played on small boards, and the object of the game is to capture an opposing stone. You can play it with handicaps, either with giving stones, as in regular go, or in requiring White to capture more stones than black. It's a good way to get started.

Welcome to the wonderful world of go!

Zalor wrote:I had a bad losing streak against people that were my kyu level or a bit lower that were wiping the floor with me. When I face people around my level I tend to get a bit more competitive, but for now I'll just focus on learning. Also I suppose this means that I'm not quite a 21k yet even if that's my current ranking.

If you have only been playing a few weeks you are closer to 35 kyu. Forget ratings until you have been playing regularly for a year. They don't mean much until then, and they don't mean much, anyway.