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DDK 19x19 game for review

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=10815

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DDK 19x19 game for review

Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 8:13 pm
by Nordico
Hello; having had a quite pleasant and useful experience previously, I am back to share another game in hopes of getting more reviews and other useful opinions =).

Here is my take on the game (I am hiding it in case you like to see the game and form your own ideas before seeing what I was thinking):

Stones 1 to 19 - The opening: I don’t find anything of particular interest here, but if someone notices a way in which any of us could have played better, please let me know.

Stones 20 to 39 - The invasion: White starts an invasion to which I respond TERRIBLY. I first put pressure on the lone stone in the left flank, and then after his response I try to cut the horse move and practically serving eye shape and life in a silver platter. Why did I do this? There’s this thing I tend to do (which I should stop doing) where sometimes I tend to apply abstract proverbs (“play aggressive where you are strong” => I thought I was pretty strong there) instead of actually reading the shape the moves get me into (and in this case the shape was quite an obvious one). From here on and until move 39 (with a final lone closure with 57) I am just trying to prevent the tentacles of the living invader from destroying my potential territory.

Stones 40 to 56 - Splitting the board: 40 gives me sente back, but I use it to keep pushing so I can get more center territory. White pushes my right side territory with 46, I respond by protecting my upper intent of territory with 47 (though I am not sure this was what needed the most protection right now). After 56 I think I will not be able to get much more juice from what is left here, so I start looking somewhere else.

Stone 57: I am not sure this was the best choice. It probably wasn’t; but I guess I was still beating myself up for messing up with the previous cut, so I was very wary of that section of the board. I DID notice that the upper left corner and lower left corner where still open for invasion, and I thought perhaps they where more important, but I was very worried that white would push through and totally destroy my center territory if I did not block there. So, yeah, here you go, take sente back.

Stones 58 to 66 - White invades again: typical 3-3 invasion in a corner, I guess. Perhaps white could have been a little less timid, but he managed to get potential for life. After move 66 I assessed that I had a decent wall protecting my territory and that I needed to not lose the invasion spot in the lower left corner, so I acted.

Stones 67 to 78 - Black Invades: Again, a typical invasion. Again, perhaps I was lucky white didn’t play more aggressively here; after move 78 I assumed I had potential for life here and little prospects for expanding further, so I figured the next stone could be used somewhere else.

Stones 79 to 98 - Drawing the line: Here I am trying to push a little further in this space to negate white some points. I think I made some good use of the weak points white was leaving while trying to push me, so I was quite satisfied with the outcome of this exchange.

Stones 99 to 118 - The start of the endgame: The first few moves (99-103) its me trying to set white up, but he obviously saw trough my quite evident scheme and reacted appropriately. Yeah, I am still not very witty with my trick plays. The rest of the moves to 118 are pretty straightforward exchanges and I didn’t notice anything special in them.

Stones 119 to 130 - A last exchange: With 118 I make a threat to the upper left corner invaders and white makes a threat to my lower left corner group. I don’t know what did white read of this situation, but my reading told me that I could kill white whole upper group and that white move only threatened two of the stones in my group and that the rest could be saved (with no air to breath, but saved nonetheless). In the end the exchange played out pretty much how I pictured it would go, so I was pretty happy for being able to read this life or death problem accurately (and also for the exchange itself =P).

Stones 131 onwards - Rest of the endgame: again, I didn’t find anything noteworthy about this moves (I just include this line for completion).


Please let me know if you disagree with something and why. Also, my comments are mostly related to strategical decisions I made throughout the game, but that doesn't mean that more tactical corrections/opinions are not welcomed (on the contrary, I am looking forward for those too, since my tactics are possibly poorer than my strategy). I do have some specific questions:

(1) Was the way I handled the first invasion actually as bad as I perceived it to be? what would have been a better response? I remember that at the time, what I wanted was to seal white in by making him struggle to make life. I ended up giving him easy life, but I did seal him off the center (though I would have liked to lose a little less side territory on the right). True, I was lucky: I don't think white capitalized on my mistake as much as he could have. But had I pressed him and left him without much of a base, he would have tried to run right through my center territory, and I didn't have any thickness to chase him into, right? So, was this still advisable?

(2) You may have notice the sgf, from an online-go game, says I am 30K, which I think is not the case. That is because I opened the account when I was starting and I don't get the chance to play many games, so it doesn't advance much. I would like to set a truthful rank manually, but I have no idea what should I set, so I was wondering if you could please advice me on this.

[EDIT]
(3) Was there any moment of the game where I could have started a Ko fight that I could have taken advantage of? I still have never had a Ko fight, and from what I read, one has to be on the lookout for them because you can gain much from that. However, I don't know yet how to identify those chances, so if someone thinks "oh, this would have been a good place to start a Ko fight", please let me know.
[/EDIT]

Here is the game (sorry, there are a few comments in Spanish with the conversation with my opponent). Hope it is, at least for a DDK match, a little bit interesting =P.

Re: DDK 19x19 game for review

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 2:04 am
by Krama
Now it's not that the fuseki is wrong (who am I to say what's wrong) but it is just weird. You never see these kinds of openings from 15k to 9p.

Perhaps it would help if you just tried to watch how other stronger amateurs or pros play. Not to mimic those moves but just to generally see the flow of the stones.

Again, not saying the fuseki is wrong but it is really unusual so people don't really know how to comment it.

For me, the stones get spread out like you gave each other handicap stones, which just makes the game more weird since people don't really like to play with handicap stones.

Re: DDK 19x19 game for review

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:21 am
by cyclops
How it comes you are still rated as 30 kyu? You are obviously much stronger now.

Re: DDK 19x19 game for review

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:37 am
by Uberdude
Nordico wrote:then after his response I try to cut the horse move and practically serving eye shape and life in a silver platter. Why did I do this? There’s this thing I tend to do (which I should stop doing) where sometimes I tend to apply abstract proverbs (“play aggressive where you are strong” => I thought I was pretty strong there) instead of actually reading the shape the moves get me into (and in this case the shape was quite an obvious one).


Stones near the edge of the board are stronger/more connected than stones in the centre: whilst it can be powerful to cut a knights move in the centre, on the 2nd line as here he can just capture you against the edge. Have a look at the difference the edge makes in these problems: viewtopic.php?p=172664#p172664 . Btw you could have recovered better from the loss of the 2 stones by sealing the centre with 31 at o16 and then p16 connect.

Fuseki not so strange, fine for ddk. c11 for c12 was a bad exchange by white, f11 was nice moyo boundary point by you.

Re: DDK 19x19 game for review

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:33 am
by Krama
Uberdude wrote:Fuseki not so strange, fine for ddk.


Indeed, fine for DDK but generally, strange.

DDKs would benefit from only watching stronger players play (also if moves were commented).

Just to get the feel of a lively game. This fuseki was good compared to painfully slow moves some DDKs tend to make (usually total beginners)

Re: DDK 19x19 game for review

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:50 am
by Nordico
Krama wrote:Now it's not that the fuseki is wrong (who am I to say what's wrong) but it is just weird. You never see these kinds of openings from 15k to 9p.


Really? In the opening I just tryed to play using the general advice given in the "Learn to play go" series, by Janice Kim, which says (in its fifth book):
(1) First play in the corners.
(2) Next enclose or approach unbalanced (3-4) corners.
(3) After the corners, play in the star side regions.
(4) Make secondary extensions that aim at invasion.
(5) After the sides, enlarge and defend towards the center.
(there are a few more, but they are rather general advice than fuseki guidelines)


cyclops wrote:How it comes you are still rated as 30 kyu? You are obviously much stronger now.


Yes, I suspected that, haha, that was my second question. What would you say my rank is?

Uberdude wrote:Btw you could have recovered better from the loss of the 2 stones by sealing the centre with 31 at o16 and then p16 connect.


I will check out those problems. I see what you mean, but was it better to make thickness towards the center there? I know, that is what I said I wanted to do, but I also didn't want to sacrifice a lot of my border territory for the influence (which at that point seemed riskier because the center line from H to P was still open for plenty reduction).


EDITED: Wrong user in the third quote corrected.

Re: DDK 19x19 game for review

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 6:14 am
by schawipp
I wouldn't call the fuseki 'strange'. It's just the occupation of hoshi points, which does not seem exceptionally weird (Apart from that, I still get a strange feeling in any kind of fuseki, but that's another story...).

What may be a bit strange is the fact that a fuseki based on hoshi stones was treated very territory-oriented in the subsequent play, while for hoshi-stones I would expect a rather influence oriented play, e. g. more invasion and fighting (the same would apply for handicap games). In the actual game - except from two minor corner invasions (and a third one, which failed) - the borders of the influence spheres were more or less "accepted" by both players and merely minor reductions were played. As a result, very huge territories were formed which is not often seen in SDK or Dan games (but it happens there also).

Re: DDK 19x19 game for review

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 8:07 am
by S2W
Fuseki is no unheard of in pro games - but white is usually more aggressive in the opening. Moves 11-15 were the turning point for white in my 9k opinion.

Re: DDK 19x19 game for review

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 8:28 am
by judicata
cyclops wrote:How it comes you are still rated as 30 kyu? You are obviously much stronger now.


OGS.

Re: DDK 19x19 game for review

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:19 pm
by cyclops
Nordico wrote:a
cyclops wrote:How it comes you are still rated as 30 kyu? You are obviously much stronger now.

Yes, I suspected that, haha, that was my second question. What would you say my rank is?
b
cyclops wrote:Btw you could have recovered better from the loss of the 2 stones by sealing the centre with 31 at o16 and then p16 connect.


@a: 13 kyu +/ 3
@b: Too much credit for me. It was Uberdude, the maestro himself.

Re: DDK 19x19 game for review

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 5:52 pm
by Nordico
cyclops wrote:@b: Too much credit for me. It was Uberdude, the maestro himself.


Corrected =P. Thanks for that, and also for the rank.


S2W wrote:Fuseki is no unheard of in pro games - but white is usually more aggressive in the opening. Moves 11-15 were the turning point for white in my 9k opinion.


Thanks for the review. Most of the corrections where on white, so I guess my moves where fairly ok? Which where my most damaging mistakes, besides the one where I cut the horse move?

Also, about stone 124, option 2 => To be honest, I didn't give this THAT much thought...I mostly planned against the move he actually made, but didn't considered the alternative you proposed enough (I saw it, but thought it didn't have that much potential...I must admit I was wrong in that). However...I think the stones are not dead and I could still have managed dual life.
With Stone 125 choose option 1; stone 135 choose option 3. But then...
Stone 137: Why capture? There is no imminent threat. Why not keep pushing above the most I can?
Stone 141: Why fill common liberties? He cannot fill them himself. If he puts a stone in c1, I capture 2 with a1, he captures 1 with b1 and we are back in the same situation but I have gained one point. A stone in b3 is also bad, since I capture 3 stones and make life. He can play a1, but this doesn't improve his situation; he still has to fill one liberty of those previows two, and if he does I capture and make life.

Perhaps I am missing something again, but I think this is dual life, which is totally fine for me since the purpose of that group is just to destroy territory.


Another thing: I forgot to mention in the main post this as a third question (I will edit it now)

(3) Was there any moment of the game where I could have started a Ko fight that I could have taken advantage of? I still have never had a Ko fight, and from what I read, one has to be on the lookout for them because you can gain much from that. However, I don't know yet how to identify those chances, so if someone thinks "oh, this would have been a good place to start a Ko fight", please let me know.

Re: DDK 19x19 game for review

Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 8:07 pm
by S2W
Nordico wrote:Thanks for the review. Most of the corrections where on white, so I guess my moves where fairly ok? Which where my most damaging mistakes, besides the one where I cut the horse move?

I thought it was pretty solid play by black - but it is hard to say. It seemed like it was a very polite game. For me the game got very hard for white after the sequence around move 15 and black played very solid after that. Your sequence in the upper lhs says you are not 30k - the fact that you found the seki says it also. Wether there were glaring errors for black is above my rank to say. It is always harder to find the winners mistakes.

Nordico wrote:Also, about stone 124, option 2 => To be honest, I didn't give this THAT much thought...I mostly planned against the move he actually made, but didn't considered the alternative you proposed enough (I saw it, but thought it didn't have that much potential...I must admit I was wrong in that).

Perhaps not - I think you are right about the seki.

Nordico wrote: However...I think the stones are not dead and I could still have managed dual life.
With Stone 125 choose option 1; stone 135 choose option 3. But then...
Stone 137: Why capture? There is no imminent threat. Why not keep pushing above the most I can?

With the capture I was trying to increase blacks liberties but on review I think you are correct - pushing might be better - though I think the liberty count is the same.

Nordico wrote:Stone 141: Why fill common liberties? He cannot fill them himself. If he puts a stone in c1, I capture 2 with a1, he captures 1 with b1 and we are back in the same situation but I have gained one point. A stone in b3 is also bad, since I capture 3 stones and make life. He can play a1, but this doesn't improve his situation; he still has to fill one liberty of those previows two, and if he does I capture and make life.

Perhaps I am missing something again, but I think this is dual life, which is totally fine for me since the purpose of that group is just to destroy territory.

I think you are correct - I was trying to check if black could live outright, but didn't look out for seki. My moves at 131 and 132 in that branch were also mistakes. Sorry for the sloppy/sleepy review.

Nordico wrote:(3) Was there any moment of the game where I could have started a Ko fight that I could have taken advantage of? I still have never had a Ko fight, and from what I read, one has to be on the lookout for them because you can gain much from that. However, I don't know yet how to identify those chances, so if someone thinks "oh, this would have been a good place to start a Ko fight", please let me know.

If you find a good method let me know - I still have trouble seeing them, but as for playing them - I think you'll find as you rank up that they become more common (if only a byproduct of failed/spurious invasions and poor reading - which is common up to sdk - as I have demonstrated).

Re: DDK 19x19 game for review

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 9:19 am
by Uberdude
Nordico wrote:
Uberudde wrote:Btw you could have recovered better from the loss of the 2 stones by sealing the centre with 31 at o16 and then p16 connect.


I see what you mean, but was it better to make thickness towards the center there? I know, that is what I said I wanted to do, but I also didn't want to sacrifice a lot of my border territory for the influence (which at that point seemed riskier because the center line from H to P was still open for plenty reduction)


Let's compare the game result:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . . . . 2 O . . . . |
$$ . . . 1 O . . O O . . |
$$ . . . X X O O X . . . |
$$ . X . . . . a X . . . |
$$ . . . . . 3 b c . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


With mine:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . . . . 2 O . . . . |
$$ . . . . O . . O O . . |
$$ . . . X X O O X . . . |
$$ . X . . . 1 3 X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


In the former black has blocked the top side, whereas it is open in the later. So in that respect the former is better. But in the latter the outside is very thin and cuttable: for example white can just push and cut with a-b-c and capture black's 2 corner stones. Or he can play b and either capture the corner again or break into the centre:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ . . . X O . . O O . . |
$$ . . . X X O O X . . . |
$$ . X . . 7 3 2 X . . . |
$$ . . . . 5 X 1 . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 6 4 . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Re: DDK 19x19 game for review

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 6:04 pm
by Bill Spight
Uberdude wrote:
Nordico wrote:
Uberudde wrote:Btw you could have recovered better from the loss of the 2 stones by sealing the centre with 31 at o16 and then p16 connect.


I see what you mean, but was it better to make thickness towards the center there? I know, that is what I said I wanted to do, but I also didn't want to sacrifice a lot of my border territory for the influence (which at that point seemed riskier because the center line from H to P was still open for plenty reduction)


Let's compare the game result:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . . . . 2 O . . . . |
$$ . . . 1 O X X O O . . |
$$ . . . X X O O X . . . |
$$ . X . . . . a X . . . |
$$ . . . . . 3 b c . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


{Diagram edited to show the captured stones.}

With mine:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . . . . 2 O . . . . |
$$ . . . . O X X O O . . |
$$ . . . X X O O X . . . |
$$ . X . . . 1 3 X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


{Ditto.}

In the former black has blocked the top side, whereas it is open in the later. So in that respect the former is better. But in the latter the outside is very thin and cuttable: for example white can just push and cut with a-b-c and capture black's 2 corner stones. Or he can play b and either capture the corner again or break into the centre:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ----------------------+
$$ . . . . . O O . . . . |
$$ . . . X O . . O O . . |
$$ . . . X X O O X . . . |
$$ . X . . 7 3 2 X . . . |
$$ . . . . 5 X 1 . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 6 4 . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


I second Uberdude on this play. In the vast majority of openings the solid wall is better than the block on the second line. In this case Black has the 10-4 stone on the right side and the Black framework on the left to work with the wall. Assuming that Black makes territory on the top side, White has a large endgame play there if Black makes the wall. But that is only a question of territory. The weakness of the Black formation when Black blocks on the second line is more serious. In addition to the variation Uberdude showed, White can play on the right side and threaten to cut through Black's weak spot. As a rule a solid wall is better than a block on the second line. In the opening, especially, strength is often more important than territory.

Re: DDK 19x19 game for review

Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 8:01 pm
by Nordico
S2W wrote:I think you are correct - I was trying to check if black could live outright, but didn't look out for seki. My moves at 131 and 132 in that branch were also mistakes. Sorry for the sloppy/sleepy review.


Nah, thank you for the review. It made me think about a path I had discarded before really examining it: I had to think for a while to find the way to live against the attack you showed me, and probably in the game I would have disregarded the attack and messed up with some move. Was a good thing to point out.

Uberdude wrote:In the former black has blocked the top side, whereas it is open in the later. So in that respect the former is better. But in the latter the outside is very thin and cuttable: for example white can just push and cut with a-b-c and capture black's 2 corner stones. Or he can play b and either capture the corner again or break into the centre:


Yeah, I see it now. I guess I was influenced by the fact that in the game white didn't push into my weak cap, but now that you show me, it could have truly damaged my center territory. I should be more watchful, not only for not messing up, but also when fixing the mess-ups. Thanks!


Bill Spight wrote: I second Uberdude on this play. In the vast majority of openings the solid wall is better than the block on the second line. In this case Black has the 10-4 stone on the right side and the Black framework on the left to work with the wall. Assuming that Black makes territory on the top side, White has a large endgame play there if Black makes the wall. But that is only a question of territory. The weakness of the Black formation when Black blocks on the second line is more serious. In addition to the variation Uberdude showed, White can play on the right side and threaten to cut through Black's weak spot. As a rule a solid wall is better than a block on the second line. In the opening, especially, strength is often more important than territory.


Strength meaning something like "having good connections where you have high investments of stones"? Ok, cool advice! Thanks, I will try to keep that in mind.
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