Life In 19x19

Posted: **Thu Sep 11, 2014 7:33 pm**

Some background: I'm a chess master and I live in Bogotá, Colombia. My friend's really good at go and I asked him to show me some things. He told me every Sunday he and a few guys meet up to play go in front of a café located in a mall. So this past Sunday I went for the first time.

He showed me a whole bunch of things, explained to me some of the trickier rules (like being able to place stones that are surrounded as long as they capture and being able to capture right back as long as it's not the same exact position). It just looked like the matrix when Neo first sees it, nothing made sense or had any meaning and I had to take tons of time on each move to even come up with something that wasn't silly.

He says because I have a chess mind I'll be good at go and that I have to study tactics first by doing lots of problems. And he told me to go for corners since they're more efficient and not to do any weird stuff while I'm still a beginner. Next week, he'll bring me a book in English so I can read it.

This week (September 7th to 13th)
I downloaded a whole bunch of go materials from the internet to get me started. I started browsing through the books just to see what I got. Yesterday I settled on doing some problems from Kano Yoshinori's Graded Go Problems for Beginners, Cho Chikun's Encyclopedia of Life & Death Problems, and sparingly Cho Chikun's All About Life and Death - Volume 1.

I did the first two sections from Graded Go Problems for Beginners and the first thirteen problems from Encyclopedia of Life & Death Problems. I didn't work on All About Life and Death - Volume 1.

I read the snapshot of Sensei's Library for a few hours so that I could understand some of the basic shapes. I feel that helped a lot.

Today I played a game against another friend of mine who heard I was taking up the game and knew the rules. I was really glad she could play against me because I knew she wouldn't mind me taking lots of time and playing on a little board. I'm really proud of the game I played: I used a keima and a horikomi, stuff I learned about this week.

I also watched a few episodes of Hikaru no Go and worked on some chess problems. I feel like that helped a lot, too.

Posted: **Thu Sep 11, 2014 11:43 pm**

Welcome to go!

While it is easier to make territory or a base in the corner than one the side or in the center, they are important, too, especially on small boards. And it's OK to do weird things when you are a beginner.

Some comments.

Posted: **Fri Sep 12, 2014 1:19 am**

Huge thanks, Bill. That was awesome :bow:

I'll look over your notes and variations in depth later today. Really honored to have someone taking the time to analyze a DDK game especially a rokudan! I'll also be reading your series on the tap, touch and step.

Posted: **Fri Sep 12, 2014 4:16 am**

Ah, Mr Squarology. I know you through your chess videos. It will be very interesting to watch how a chess master adapts to Go.

For me, the biggest changes required were:

1. Chess is more materialistic. In Go, it is hard to get used to letting your stones get captured, as you think of them as being as valuable as pawns. In practice, you can and should sacrifice and abandon them frequently.

2. In chess, even if the players are similar strength, you are trying to crush your opponent to nothing, to blow him off the board. That won't work in Go. You have to accept that your opponent will get big areas of territory, but just make sure that you get more.

Anyway, good luck with it.

Posted: **Fri Sep 12, 2014 4:20 am**

We don't differentiate when giving help but I'm sure Bill too has recognized a promising player, from the fact that
- you described the rules of capture and ko in an original way that reflects true understanding
- you weren't too indulgent to play on small boards first
- you consciously applied acquired concepts to your game, even if wrong half of the time

Enjoy!

Posted: **Fri Sep 12, 2014 9:13 am**

tapia, I suggest not making a habit of using japanese terms too much. Most go terms have equivalents in English, and these equivalents are known to most players, unlike the japanese ones. Mixing languages unless absolutely necessary is usually not a good idea.
You may want to check these pages on Sensei's Library:
http://senseis.xmp.net/?GoTerms
http://senseis.xmp.net/?CommonGoTerms
http://senseis.xmp.net/?EnglishGoTerms

Posted: **Fri Sep 12, 2014 10:01 am**

I had to look up horikomi

I use Japanese terms where there is no good/short English equivalent, so seki, atari, ko, sente, gote, kikashi, aji, miai, hane, but throw-in, attach, extend, approach, ladder, net, capture, points (not moku), 3-3, 3-4, 4-4 (but I might say hoshi). It seems I don't like long Japanese names as I prefer the longer shortage-of-liberties to damezumari. But I would use oshi-tsubushi if the syllables were o-shit-subushi which is rather onomatopoeic

.

Posted: **Fri Sep 12, 2014 2:57 pm**

One additional remark about Blacks move #25: that move was not increasing Blacks liberties, so your White move #26 capturing the 3 black stones was not needed. Black could not have saved his 3 stones, because your surrounding groups have more liberties. If Black played A8, White can move up as well with B8, or if Black plays diagonal on B8 his groups still only has one liberty and you can capture him right away.

So instead of your White move #26 just take another move, like F6 (what Bill suggested).

Posted: **Fri Sep 12, 2014 11:17 pm**

After seeing your game commentary, I already have the feeling that you'd become a strong player.

A few extra thoughts (thanks for showing us the game:

I personally don't mind many Japanese terms being used at all (I actually prefer it that way), but many players aren't familiar with the more uncommonly used ones. I guess in a study journal it's fine, but if reviewing someone else's game for them, maybe

It seems you're trying to learn many concepts, but just as important to improving (and having fun

) is to know when to apply them in a game. I hope you enjoy playing Go!

Posted: **Sat Sep 13, 2014 1:10 am**

Hi tapia,

I don't know why, but I'm sure you will be Shodan before I will even reach SDK...

Posted: **Sat Sep 13, 2014 5:55 am**

As a former chess player -not a master though- i will give you one advice from personal experience.
If there is one thing you can learn from me is this:

Do not and i mean DO NOT try to kill everything.

Obviously the same applies in the opposite direction, do not try to save every single stone. Go stones are much less worthy than chess pawns and the sign of a great player is his ability to recognize which stones can be sacrificed and which can't. You should also abolish the chess mentality of attacking. Attacking in go is very different. Since you are a chess master -how much elo anyway? - you can calculate quite accurately so i would advise you to forget everything about strategy, opening theory, endgame etc. and focus your immediate attention to tactics which in go is called tesuji and generally problems in which you have to calculate sequences, best way to do that is to solve life and death problems or tsumego. Do that and after that focus on the strategic aspect of the game.

Posted: **Sat Sep 13, 2014 8:02 am**

1/7,000,000,000 wrote:As a former chess player -not a master though- i will give you one advice from personal experience.
If there is one thing you can learn from me is this:

Do not and i mean DO NOT try to kill everything.

Obviously the same applies in the opposite direction, do not try to save every single stone. Go stones are much less worthy than chess pawns and the sign of a great player is his ability to recognize which stones can be sacrificed and which can't. You should also abolish the chess mentality of attacking.

Funny, when I was starting out, I tried to kill everything.

I have no regrets.

(I confess that I was influenced by Reti's advice to beginners in chess to play open games, since the game eventually opens up, anyway. Likewise, go eventually comes down to life and death. If you can't kill an invasion, it ain't your territory.) I also tried to keep sente, so that if I was attacking and saw I couldn't kill, I usually went somewhere else. Obviously, many of my attacks turned into defeats. In those cases I tried to sacrifice my weak stones in exchange for strong positions.

I am not recommending anything. That's just how I started out.

Posted: **Sat Sep 13, 2014 10:22 am**

1/7,000,000,000 wrote:
Do not and i mean DO NOT try to kill everything.

A more moderate, strategic form is possibly even more helpful for good chess players, I guess. You do not need an "explosive" effort in the late middle game to win by attacking.

1/7,000,000,000 wrote:[...] focus your immediate attention to tactics which in go is called tesuji.

A really ambitious player mostly needs a tesuji reference book, and access to pro games. Studying tesuji is the equivalent to knowing chess combinations. You have to internalise the patterns.

Posted: **Sat Sep 13, 2014 10:35 am**

Interesting, There are many players who started out playing go focusing on nothing but theory, theory, theory-- these players are mostly in western countries, for some reason tsumego is "too much work" for some and "not enjoyable" so they basically can't read ahead (an easterner would find it quite strange)-- while others don't want to hear about direction of play and would do nothing but tsumego, tsumego, tsumego-- mostly in China and Korea-- and have zero direction of play but some dangerous "killer" moves (looks very weird to a westerner)-- and then a minority who just want to acquire knowledge, knowledge, knowledge (fancy go terms, memorising or studying joseki, etc.) which trains reading and direction f play a little but they're still relatively weak at other parts of the game.

Of course, something closer to the medium would result in faster improvement, but you can do whatever you want (everyone would play similarly if they studied in exactly the same way)-- try finding commented pro games, these would help you in most aspects of the game and indirectly help you to find a happy medium of study that suits you, whatever your preference.

Posted: **Sun Sep 14, 2014 12:51 am**

@Bill Spight I'm still like that even though i should know better :lol:

I try to complicate the game any chance i get and enter big fights even though at a disadvantage. I have crushed opponents 3 stones stronger than me in 100-150 moves and i have lost many games to supposedly weaker opposition so go figure...
It's more fun playing this way but i'm not sure about the speed of improving.

Elom wrote:Interesting, There are many players who started out playing go focusing on nothing but theory, theory, theory-- these players are mostly in western countries, for some reason tsumego is "too much work" for some and "not enjoyable" so they basically can't read ahead (an easterner would find it quite strange)-- while others don't want to hear about direction of play and would do nothing but tsumego, tsumego, tsumego-- mostly in China and Korea-- and have zero direction of play but some dangerous "killer" moves (looks very weird to a westerner)-- and then a minority who just want to acquire knowledge, knowledge, knowledge (fancy go terms, memorising or studying joseki, etc.) which trains reading and direction f play a little but they're still relatively weak at other parts of the game.

That's what i had in mind when i wrote about focusing on tactics and not strategy. My approach to the game is the same as those Asian people you describe. I have little experience with strategy and especially joseki/fuseki and all i focus is tsumego, tsumego, tsumego as you say. Lately i've been trying to improve in those aspects too but my philosophy hasn't changed. I am of the opinion that reading comes before anything and if you get good at reading all else will come more naturally than trying to remember variations in josekis and stuff like that. I don't know why, maybe because i'm a former chess player, maybe because of my studies but i love solving problems so i don't consider tsumego as a chore, instead i try solving them every chance i get. Even though this might be a slow way of improving i'm fairly convinced that this is the right path towards progress for me and maybe other chess players can find it entertaining too.

I have a pet peeve against people who try to memorize endless variations of josekis and refuse to do tsumego so i'm strongly biased. Those are the kind of people who come out of fuseki well ahead and slowly but surely crumble in the middle game much alike with all those people in chess who memorize endless variations in the sicilian or the grunfeld or snappy gambits like Moran and s h i t and don't see a 2 move tactic on f7.

Eventually you will have to learn about strategy and josekis like in chess if you want to improve, but until then...

Life In 19x19

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