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My first two ko threats. Game analysis
Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 3:31 am
by Fllecha
Hi all,
I played white a game no komi against computer(black) at max level.
I managed to lose by 4, but I made my first 2 ko threat. For a beginner is a satisfaction, they are around the final moves.
Any comment on the game is welcomed.
THank you
http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=5103
Re: My first two ko threats. Game analysis
Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 6:41 am
by S2W
Here's my review (insert usual 9k disclaimer)
Btw - yes there were lots more threats - but it was well past time to fill the ko.
Also I notice that you've posted a lot of computer games. You may want to try against a live opponent online if you haven't done so already - igo win is a source of bad habits if you play it too much and playing a real person is very different in terms of style.
(;GM[1]FF[4]SZ[19]AP[SmartGo Kifu:3.4]
GN[2014-09-13a];B[dp];W[pd];B[pp];W[dd];B[cf];W[fc];B[bd];W[cc];B[ci]
(;W[pj]MA[ee:fe][gf][if][kg][mh:nh][oi]TR[dg][eh][gi][ij][jk][ll][mm][nn][oo]
C[**** Letting black build a bigger framework ];B[nc];W[lc];B[qc]
(;W[pc];B[qd]
(;W[pe]
C[ok I see now that it's wrong: the joseki says r15. Strangely I knew it but somwhat I didn't play it.
***No - this is correct - joseki is different if black has o17]
;B[pb]
(;W[ic];B[nq]
(;W[qn];B[cn];W[fq];B[kd];W[kc];B[md];W[iq];B[bc];W[bb]
C[For the people that read my joseki thread here they can found my doubt. Now I know how to respond: don't play b18 but tenuki!]
;B[qp];W[dr];B[cq];W[lq];B[cr]
(;W[mo];B[gp];W[gq];B[fp];W[hp];B[er];W[eq];B[dq];W[fr];B[ep];W[on]
C[is white better here? I think so
*** I like black - white is low on top, thin and undercut on rhs not many points on bottom Black has a big wall with extension on lhs with good development potential and solid groups on bottom rhs and top rhs ]
;B[hn]
(;W[kl]
C[Is this correct? I try to catch the center!
*** Seems aimless white is only getting a small area ]
TR[ok:om][ml:nm][nn];B[kk]
C[Bad by black ];W[lk];B[ki];W[kj];B[jk];W[jj];B[lj];W[li];B[mj];W[mi]
C[Bad. Simply m8];B[ll]
(;W[ml];B[mk];W[lm];B[ji];W[ij];B[lk];W[jl];B[nl];W[mm];B[ok];W[pk];B[ik]
;W[il];B[hk];W[hj];B[jf];W[jh];B[gj];W[ii];B[kg];W[kh];B[mf];W[og];B[ob]
;W[in];B[gl];W[hm];B[gi];W[es]
C[useless now i see];B[gm];W[hl];B[gn];W[ho];B[ck];W[hg];B[eg];W[ge]
(;B[en];W[ie];B[fh];W[mr];B[nr];W[qe];B[re];W[rf];B[rd];W[sf];B[rp]
(;W[mq];B[np];W[mp];B[os];W[no]
(;B[jd];W[jc];B[ee];W[ed];B[cd];W[dc];B[de];W[id];B[ab];W[cb];B[mb];W[lb]
;B[ma];W[la];B[cs];W[ds]
(;B[ro];W[rn];B[sn];W[sm];B[so];W[rl];B[nm];W[nn];B[ol];W[pl];B[po];W[pn]
;B[ms];W[ls];B[om];W[pm];B[oj];W[oi];B[nj];W[ni];B[lg];W[je];B[ke];W[ne]
;B[nf];W[of];B[od];W[oe];B[oc];W[me];B[ff];W[fe];B[ld];W[mc];B[nd];W[if]
;B[se];W[jg];B[kf];W[ng];B[mg];W[mh];B[gf];W[hf];B[go];W[gg];B[gh];W[fg]
;B[ef];W[hh];B[oo];W[ns];B[or];W[ba]
C[read the comment to next move];B[ms];W[na]
C[MY FIRST KO THREAT.
I should have played it the previous move. But for a beginner playing consciously a ko threat is a big satisfaction]
;B[nb];W[ns];B[le];W[aa];B[ac]
(;W[hi]
C[***Seems you want another ko fight - read comment on variation];B[lh]
(;W[qo]
C[*** Now you are just baiting it];B[ms];W[fk]
C[ANOTHER KO THREAT];B[gk];W[ns]
(;B[fs];W[gs];B[ms];W[qb]
(;B[rb];W[ns];B[sl];W[rm];B[ms];W[rc];B[sc];W[ns];B[io]
(;W[jn];B[ms];W[ce];B[be];W[ns];B[ip];W[hq];B[ms]
C[I think that's it for white ])
(;W[ms];B[jn];W[im];B[km]))
(;B[ns];W[rb]))
(;B[fj]
C[*** Pointless];W[ms]
C[where there another ko threat?
*see vars -also see comment on value if the ko]
;B[ek];W[];B[]))
(;W[ms]))
(;W[ms]
C[This is worth 1 point for white (or 0.5 points in fair counting). The .5 means it would take black two moves to make it his point so if there is a solid 1 pt move elsewhere take it instead. But here there are no other points so it is time to take the ko.]
))
(;B[qm])
(;B[sm]))
(;B[qm];W[pm];B[rn];W[rm];B[ql]
(;W[ro];B[pl])
(;W[pl];B[rl];W[ro];B[sm]
(;W[so];B[qo])
(;W[qo];B[so]))))
(;W[pm]))
(;B[qe]))
(;W[nj];B[mk];W[qe]
C[Better but not great])
(;W[mk];B[nj];W[ni];B[nk];W[ml];B[lm];W[nl];B[ok];W[ol];B[pk];W[pi]
C[Hard fight]))
(;W[qe]))
(;W[qe]))
(;W[fq]))
(;W[ob]
C[Joseki ];B[qb];W[oc];B[qf]
(;W[pf];B[qg]
C[Q10 starting to look in trouble though]
(;W[jd]
C[Feels over concentrated ])
(;W[hd]
C[Maybe])
(;W[id]
C[Feels wishy washy])
(;W[nd]
C[Maybe]))
(;W[jd])
(;W[og])
(;W[fq])))
(;W[qe]
C[This is bad for white - but a common mistake];B[qb]
(;W[pb];B[pe];W[oe];B[pf];W[qf];B[od]
C[White looses 3 stones])
(;W[pe];B[pb]
C[Blacks stones are connected])))
(;W[qd]
C[This works better with stone at q10 but I think the other side is bigger]
;B[pc];W[od];B[nb];W[me]))
(;W[fq])
(;W[jq]))
Re: My first two ko threats. Game analysis
Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 10:12 am
by Charles Matthews
W182 should be one line lower, to make two threats here. A point of technique.
Re: My first two ko threats. Game analysis
Posted: Sat Sep 13, 2014 11:52 am
by Fllecha
S2W wrote:
Also I notice that you've posted a lot of computer games. You may want to try against a live opponent online if you haven't done so already - igo win is a source of bad habits if you play it too much and playing a real person is very different in
I will follow your advice soon.
As I done with chess many years ago, I started playing against computer to get a feeling for the game: I will play real people maybe within a month. Actually I started playing on dragon go server against humens.
In addition: I am a teacher and now I'm preparing lessons for the incoming school year (here we start monday) and I haven't much time to play go

Re: My first two ko threats. Game analysis
Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 8:42 am
by zinger
18: must play P17 to break black's connection. Cutting and connecting is fundamental.
58: must play N9
64 and 70: these moves only provoke black to push through the gap which is good for him. This is called "toothpaste technique" and is not good. Both times, turning at J11 is better.
77: another example of why you should stop playing with weak computers. Black must 100% pull out of this atari.
86: is not totally useless, but is too small at this stage of the game. Good job seeing that.
88: now, this move really is useless. As just one alternative, R15 is huge. Compare black playing S14.
94: is almost a pass, connecting two groups which are already strong and safe.
98, 100: good
127: ridiculous, black can jump all the way to T7 here, and still keep sente.
196: you don't need another ko threat because you can just fill the ko. However, B15 would be a good threat if you needed it, and R18 another.
Re: My first two ko threats. Game analysis
Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 3:49 am
by topazg
Congrats on having your first ko fight with tangible threats

Now to the party pooper bit - you're fighting over a ko where the winner is one point better off, and it takes two turns to win (one to capture, one to fill), and is often known as a half point ko (or third point ko, but I'll ignore that for the sake of simplicity).
Instead of playing your threat at O19 for 182 (O18 is better technique as Charles said, as it leaves P19 as another threat), simply play M15 as it's worth the same number of points as winning the ko fight, in half the number of moves.
Re: My first two ko threats. Game analysis
Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2014 11:35 am
by Bill Spight
A few comments on the endgame.

Go to move 158.
(;GM[1]AP[GOWrite:2.3.46]SZ[19]FF[4]ST[2]CA[ISO8859-1]PM[2]KM[0.0]PB[ ]FG[259:]PW[ ]GN[ ]
;B[dp]
;W[pd]
;B[pp]
;W[dd]
;B[cf]
;W[fc]
;B[bd]
;W[cc]
;B[ci]
;W[pj]
;B[nc]
;W[lc]
;B[qc]
;W[pc]
;B[qd]
;C[ok I see now that it's wrong\: the joseki says r15. Strangely I knew it but somwhat I didn't play it.]W[pe]
;B[pb]
;W[ic]
;B[nq]
;W[qn]
;B[cn]
;W[fq]
;B[kd]
;W[kc]
;B[md]
;W[iq]
;B[bc]
;C[For the people that read my joseki thread here they can found my doubt. Now I know how to respond\: don't play b18 but tenuki!]W[bb]
;B[qp]
;W[dr]
;B[cq]
;W[lq]
;B[cr]
;W[mo]
;B[gp]
;W[gq]
;B[fp]
;W[hp]
;B[er]
;W[eq]
;B[dq]
;W[fr]
;B[ep]
;C[is white better here? I think so]W[on]
;B[hn]
;C[Is this correct? I try to catch the center!]W[kl]
;B[kk]
;W[lk]
;B[ki]
;W[kj]
;B[jk]
;W[jj]
;B[lj]
;W[li]
;B[mj]
;C[Bad. Simply m8]W[mi]
;B[ll]
;W[ml]
;B[mk]
;W[lm]
;B[ji]
;W[ij]
;B[lk]
;W[jl]
;B[nl]
;W[mm]
;B[ok]
;W[pk]
;B[ik]
;W[il]
;B[hk]
;W[hj]
;B[jf]
;W[jh]
;B[gj]
;W[ii]
;B[kg]
;W[kh]
;B[mf]
;W[og]
;B[ob]
;W[in]
;B[gl]
;W[hm]
;B[gi]
;C[useless now i see]W[es]
;B[gm]
;W[hl]
;B[gn]
;W[ho]
;B[ck]
;W[hg]
;B[eg]
;W[ge]
;B[en]
;W[ie]
;B[fh]
;W[mr]
;B[nr]
;W[qe]
;B[re]
;W[rf]
;B[rd]
;W[sf]
;B[rp]
;W[mq]
;B[np]
;W[mp]
;B[os]
;W[no]
;B[jd]
;W[jc]
;B[ee]
;W[ed]
;B[cd]
;W[dc]
;B[de]
;W[id]
;B[ab]
;W[cb]
;B[mb]
;W[lb]
;B[ma]
;W[la]
;B[cs]
;W[ds]
;B[ro]
;W[rn]
;B[sn]
;W[sm]
;B[so]
;W[rl]
;B[nm]
;W[nn]
;B[ol]
;W[pl]
;B[po]
;W[pn]
;B[ms]
;W[ls]
;B[om]
;W[pm]
;B[oj]
;W[oi]
;B[nj]
;W[ni]
;B[lg]
;W[je]
;B[ke]
;W[ne]
;B[nf]
;W[of]
;B[od]
;W[oe]
;B[oc]
;W[me]
;B[ff]
(
;C[*** Carry out your threat. See variation.]W[fe]
;B[ld]
(
;C[*** See variation. Then go to move 180.]W[mc]
;B[nd]
;W[if]
;B[se]
;W[jg]
;B[kf]
;W[ng]
;B[mg]
;W[mh]
;B[gf]
;W[hf]
;B[go]
;W[gg]
;B[gh]
;W[fg]
;B[ef]
;W[hh]
;B[oo]
;W[ns]
;B[or]
(
;C[read the comment to next move
*** This play is only worth the same as the ko. There is a bigger play. See variation.]W[ba]
;B[ms]
;C[MY FIRST KO THREAT.
I should have played it the previous move. But for a beginner playing consciously a ko threat is a big satisfaction]W[na]
;B[nb]
(
;C[*** See variation.]W[ns]
;B[le]
;W[aa]
;B[ac]
;W[hi]
;B[lh]
;W[qo]
;B[ms]
;C[ANOTHER KO THREAT
*** Great threat!]W[fk]
;B[gk]
;W[ns]
;C[*** Loses one point.]B[fj]
;C[where there another ko threat?]W[ms]
;C[*** Loses one point.]B[ek]
;W[tt]
;TW[ca:ka][db:kb][ec][er][fd:hd][fs:ks][gc:hc][gr:lr][he][hq][ig:ih][im:km][io:lp][ji:ki][jn:mn][jq:kq][nh:sh][pf:qf][pg:sg][pi:si][qj:sk][ql][qm:rm][sl]B[tt]C[*** Black wins by only 4 points.]TB[ad][ae:ce][af:bf][ag:dg][ah:eh][ai:bi][aj:ej][ak:bk][al:fm][an:bn][ao:fo][ap:cp][aq:bs][df][di:fi][dk][dn][fk][fn][lf][na:sa][nk][op][oq:sq][pr:ss][qb:sb][rc:sc][sd][sp]
)
(
;W[le]
;TW[ca:ka][db:kb][ec][er][fd:hd][fs:ks][gc:hc][gr:lr][he][hq][ig:ih][im:km][io:lp][ji:ki][jn:mn][jq:kq][nh:sh][pf:qf][pg:sg][pi:si][qj:sk][ql][qm:rm][sl]B[ns]C[*** Black wins by 6 points.]TB[ad][ae:ce][af:bf][ag:dg][ah:eh][ai:bi][aj:fj][ak:bk][al:fm][an:bn][ao:fo][ap:cp][aq:bs][df][di:fi][dk:gk][dn][fn][na:sa][nk][op][oq:sq][pr:ss][qb:sb][rc:sc][sd][sp]
)
)
(
;C[*** This play gains 1/2 point. Black had 1/2 point of territory here, which this play has taken away.]W[le]
(
;C[*** Gains 1/3 point, the same as taking the ko.]B[ba]
;W[ca]
;B[ac]
;W[ms]
;TW[da:kb][ec][er][fd:hd][fs:ks][gc:hc][gr:lr][he][hq][ig:ih][im:km][io:lp][ji:ki][jn:mn][jq:kq][nh:sh][pf:qf][pg:sg][pi:si][qj:sk][ql][qm:rm][sl]B[aa]C[*** Black wins by 6 points.]TB[ad][ae:ce][af:bf][ag:dg][ah:eh][ai:bi][aj:fj][ak:bk][al:fm][an:bn][ao:fo][ap:cp][aq:bs][df][di:fi][dk:gk][dn][fn][na:sa][nb][nk][op][oq:sq][pr:ss][qb:sb][rc:sc][sd][sp]
)
(
;B[ms]
;W[ba]
;TW[ca:ka][db:kb][ec][er][fd:hd][fs:ks][gc:hc][gr:lr][he][hq][ig:ih][im:km][io:lp][ji:ki][jn:mn][jq:kq][nh:sh][pf:qf][pg:sg][pi:si][qj:sk][ql][qm:rm][sl]B[ns]C[*** Black wins by 6 points.]TB[ad][ae:ce][af:bf][ag:dg][ah:eh][ai:bi][aj:fj][ak:bk][al:fm][an:bn][ao:fo][ap:cp][aq:bs][df][di:fi][dk:gk][dn][fn][na:sa][nb][nk][op][oq:sq][pr:ss][qb:sb][rc:sc][sd][sp]
)
)
)
(
;W[sd]
(
;C[*** Mistake.]B[se]
;W[qb]
;B[sc]
;C[*** Captures the Black stones in the corner. In addition. . . .]W[rb]
;B[le]
;W[mg]
;B[lf]
;W[jg]
;B[pa]
;C[*** The rest of the Black group dies, as well.]W[na]
)
(
;B[sc]
;W[se]
;C[*** 3 point sente for White.]B[qb]
)
)
)
(
;C[*** Cut off and capture eight Black stones to win the game.]W[ld]
)
)