Life In 19x19

I remember Someone saying that Lee Sedol 9p would like to play in a 8-hour internatiol tournament or so.
But An Youngill said that it would be very difficult for a tournament like that to be organisd these days.

So I wonder, how many Go tournaments are in peoples mind that seem to impossible to do, but would be really nice? Weather it's because it's more convulatd than the Olleh KT Cup, (as in my case) or that it would be too hard to organise, or you could even just put idea's that you have been wondering, "why it hasn't been done before?". It doesn't matter how silly it sounds that's why I made this topic.

For example, hers's an impossible silly-sounding Hayago tournament blueprint: Too hard to follow and it would be hard to gather the required participants, and other reasons...

Each reigon would send an even number of male and female players, sending in total 36 participants--

Japan: 4
Korea: 4
China: 4
Africa: 6*
S America: 6
Oceania: 4*
Europe: 6
Rest of Asia^: 6
N America: 6

*Only because Oceania consists of a very small amount of countries, and when you consider that sometimes Oceania is not even considered a seperate Continent in a geogaphical sense, 4 people means more players in ratio of total poulation than any of the other continents.

^Because it seems that the strongest players (top pros) are heavily concentrated in Korea and China.

The total player number is raised to 40 by inviting 4 "notable public figures" (in other words, famous people or VIP's XD who cares if their 30 kyu, it would still mke the tournament somewhat noticeable in the country of whosoever the famous person is from) and the 40 players are sorted into 8 groups of 5-- the grop stage would be a 5-player round-robin played in one day (time limits 10m and then 3x10s per move afterwards) with the two highest scoing players proceeding from each group.

Okay,the 16 players compte in what I call a "triple elimination" tounament-- but not a pure one though. If you manage to read this while keeping you're brain intact, you deserve an award.

A R2 R3 R4 R5

1 1 1 1 1
2
3 2
4
5 3 2
6
7 4
8
9 5 3 2
10
11 6
12
13 7 4
14
15 8
16

Numbers of players in 2nd and 3rd draw for each round--
1 2 3 4 5

+8+4+2+1
B 8 8 6*5*4 2 1
-4-4-2-1-2-1

+4+4+2+1+2+1
C 8 6^ 8 4 2 1
-4-2 -4


*two byes are given so only two are eliminated, and then in the next round, only one game is played

^same reason as above.

Part 2 coming next.

Why would it be so hard? It has been done many times in Japan.

Bangneki tournament with the best of the best. 1 bang (10 pts. of territory) = $10,000, manbang/resign = $100,000.

Araban wrote:Bangneki tournament with the best of the best. 1 bang (10 pts. of territory) = $10,000, manbang/resign = $100,000.

This is an interesting idea. Given the current economics of Go, presumably only players with separate sponsors willing to put up the manbang $100K could enter. Sponsorship changes from the tournament to the individual players. What structure would work best, a traditional knock-out table? In that case it's just your tough luck if you are paired against Lee Sedol in the first-round drawing. Alternatively is there some sort of ladder structure with a challenge-accept mechanism that could produce more interesting matches in early rounds? Or Ryusei-sen style win and continue leagues leading up to a final?

ez4u wrote:

Araban wrote:Bangneki tournament with the best of the best. 1 bang (10 pts. of territory) = $10,000, manbang/resign = $100,000.

This is an interesting idea. Given the current economics of Go, presumably only players with separate sponsors willing to put up the manbang $100K could enter. Sponsorship changes from the tournament to the individual players. What structure would work best, a traditional knock-out table? In that case it's just your tough luck if you are paired against Lee Sedol in the first-round drawing. Alternatively is there some sort of ladder structure with a challenge-accept mechanism that could produce more interesting matches in early rounds? Or Ryusei-sen style win and continue leagues leading up to a final?

What I would love to see is a Bangneki/Hahn styled city league. 7 player roster for 5 boards. Games are played on consecutive days, and the player on the roster who plays on a given day need not be announced until 5 minutes before the game. A player may not play in more than one game in a series. Players may be substituted mid game, but once they leave they are done (for the series).


Watching how board 3 changes their style based on board 1's result could be fascinating. Would it be worth it to have an endgame specialist if the series comes down to a close game? Perhaps a tsumego expert for once you hit a tricky situation. Maybe a player who excels in byo-yomi?

It could give us a chance to see pros who might have niche skills that can't quite put it all together to get a title.

DrStraw wrote:Why would it be so hard? It has been done many times in Japan.

Really? Well, as far as I know, the SAWMG (in china) once used a double elimination system in the , but there where understandably two separate draws (male&female). I don't know of any international pro/ama tournament in Japan.

This would be a triple-elimination, but the reasons why I thought it might be difficult to organise is because was not sure that there would be enough prize money for any pros to be interested, but thinking about it again, pros could obviously participate in a more good-will fashion.

I think that it's just that I believe it's an obvious way to improve Baduk wordlwide, and I can't see why it hasn't been done before-- currently, there is no tournament where the top players from Africa, N&S America, Oceania and Europe to play against the top female players, for example. I'm not confident that the top female players could sustain an extremly high winning percentage against top American or European players.

I forgot to mention that at least one player from each region should be under 20.

What you'd have combined into one is basically (put in order of average strength of the top 10 players of each region)--

Top Chinese players (maybe)
Top Korean Players (maybe)
Top Japanese players (maybe)
Top Youth Chinese players (maybe)
Top Youth Korean Players (maybe)
Top Youth Japanese players (maybe)
Top Female Chinese players (maybe)
Top Female Korean Players (maybe)
Top Asian players (excluding CJK)
Top Youth Asian Players (excluding CJK)
Top Female Japanese players (maybe)
Top N American players
Top Female Asian Players (excluding CJK)
Top European players
Top S American players
Top Oceania Players
Top African Players
Top Female N American players
Top Female European Players
Top Female S American players
Top Female African players

I don't know how to gather all of the participants XD

1 to 10, Jane, King, Queen, and 6 jokers with numeric value zero for numbers of players that are not multiples of 13.

Mind in magenta/purple
Soul (Spades) in blue
Sprit in cyan
Heart (Hearts) in red
Life (Clubs) in green
Wealth (Diamonds) in yellow

Korea
the Supreme Mind
In year 1 preliminaries A, B and C. In year 2 Final preliminaries and main tournament. Preliminaries are never done in one go, but separated into different days for each qualification slot. Qualifying through a stage seeds you into it next holding.

the Soul Sphere

Japan
the Fighting Spirit
Invitational, by country origin rather than pro association: Seoul-controlled Korea 8, Pyongyang-controlled Korea 2, Taipei-controlled part of China 8, Beijing-controlled part of China 2, Japan 12, Europe 6, Americas 6, Oceania 2, 8 top amateurs worldwide then top 16 female players each from Korea, including one from the north, Japan, Taipei-controlled China, Beijing-controlled china. Eight 8-player swisses are held on 8 different days. Then 16 2-player swiss on 16 different days, then the last game on 32 different days.

the Heart Hand

China
Taipei-controlled section of China: the Life Lens
32 Top female players with 16 lifetime U15 players (Chinese style), 16 lifetime O45 players (Korean style), with lifetime being age measured from estimated conception (generally biologically more accurate than age).

Beijing-controlled section of China: the Wealth Window
An expensive international tournament based in the Beijing-controlled section of China open equally to amateurs and pros (very Chinese style)

In Korea respect for the old seems to be based on expecting high ability, and in this extends even at old age. On the other hand, it's only in china that I saw the sensible rule employed where the age cut off. It seems only the Chinese. Some might say the New Ryuusei is not really fully Japanese genophenic and cultural style, and what about the Teikei? However the dynamic of the identity Kansai Kiin (set up initially as an 'alternative', or less euphamistically, opposition , naturally sets itself up to be more creative in this regard due to alternative). In these cases I think the Kansai Kiin copied Korea and China respectively.
Interestingly I'm half part of an ethnic group with some of the cultural genophics that Korea and especially china has much in common. Although I'm genophenically a lot more Japanese, strange I've even identified a gene in that half that I've only ever seen in Japan, although I've found genes normally asian in the other half too, weird.

This is likely the final major draft of the tournaments I'd like to see.

Japan, the Fighting Spirit, Korea, the Supreme Mind, in Taipei-controlled China, the Wealth Window, but all three tournament are run exactly the same way but just use the ruleset in each country.

32 8-round two-day swiss preliminaries with a time limit of 3 hours absolute per game, held consecutively for a total of 64 days, then a main tournament of 32 with time limit of 6 hours absolute per and 9 hours absolute for the semi-finals and final.
Winner: $250,000
Runner-Up: $128,000
two other Semifinalists: $64,000
four other Quarterfinalist: $32,000
eight other Octofinalists: $16,000
sixteen other Main Tournament entrants: $8,000
And so on down to the winners of round one of the preliminaries, $128.
Special tournaments, each with $64,000 winner and the same split for places 2, 3-4, 5-8, etc.:
Japan: the Heart Hand Taipei-controlled China 16 Japan 16 Europe 8 Americas 8 Top Amateurs 8 Top non-KJC Amateurs 8 Top female players 32 Top Female Japanese Players 16 Top Female Taipei-controlled China Players 16, 7 round swiss.
Korea: the Seoule Sphere Korea, Taipei-controlled China, Beijing-controlled China, Korea, Japan, Europe, Americas, each 8 players, top 16 Female players, 6 round swiss.
The Life Lens, held twice a year since young people's strength changes very quickly. Taipei-controlled China, Beijing-controlled China, Japan, Korea each send two players under 15, two players over 45, and two female players, Knockout.

In total all these tournaments will probably cost around $2,000,000 a year. I don't have that kind of money.

note: When I was talking about a gene I'd ever only seen in Japan, I meant not a gene in myself but a gene I had found in two relatives

I would like to see a tournament where the winners of all top tournament of a year compete. That might be (depending on the definition) less than 8 players. Then we round up to 8 players by adding the best from the world ranking list or giving places to one pro from Europe and America. The 8 players then play a round robin with reasonable thinking time. If there are two or more players with the same number of points at the end there will be a playoff with short thinking time.
Such a tournament would be a true world championship!

theo wrote:I would like to see a tournament where the winners of all top tournament of a year compete. That might be (depending on the definition) less than 8 players. Then we round up to 8 players by adding the best from the world ranking list or giving places to one pro from Europe and America. The 8 players then play a round robin with reasonable thinking time. If there are two or more players with the same number of points at the end there will be a playoff with short thinking time.
Such a tournament would be a true world championship!

The winners of the top tournaments would already be more than 8 players. That would be very similar to the tournament of Winners in Japan, although they include the winners of the top female tournaments, which makes wayyy more sense than tagging on some random westerner for absolutely no good reason. Of course if the world's top amateurs, top female pros, top Taiwanese pros and top Japanese pros (to give them a chance to play in the tournament if we're going to give westerners a chance) and top non-KJC amateurs were in a mixed preliminary with Europeans and Americans and a westerner STILL beat them all to get a place, THEN it would be justified.

I don't get the obsession with wanting western pros to want to be seeded with top Korean and Chinese pros when we have top Taiwanese and Japanese, and before that top female pros, and before that top female Japanese. Three entire levels of play before you even get to that stage. So it makes me very annoyed when it comes to international tournaments just randomly seeding westerners with top pros. It seems absurd, not achieving much but an ego trip. Why not play not focus on beating top female pros who are equally notable but closer to your level? So I have a grand total of zero interest in Western players competing at the top two rungs if they're not competing at the bottom two rungs. It simply becomes a way to distract us from what they obviously should be doing.

If were to include European and American pros in an international, it would only, then when they get stronger after a few decades Taiwanese and Japanese pros, then after a few decades more maybe they can be seeded against top pros. In, that very reason would imply that it would best to focus and just tone the ego down a bit--moreso the delusional western fans than the western pros themselves--forgot about top pros and see if they can not embarrass themselves against the top female players. When European players are scoring 50% against the top female pros, which might happen in say 2040 the earliest if i'm being optimistic, then I wouldn't think it's hubristic shallowness on the part of international tournament organisers to pair them against top pros under the pretence of promoting go (if I sound like a grumpy brat, I am one)!

When you have people deliberately avoiding the above it does the exact opposite of promoting go (therefore the common practice has exasperated me somewhat. If people are going to be undercover sexist/ageist/prejudiced in some sort of way at least don't do so to your own disadvantage (like the palm oil origin problem*), haha (I mean Rui Naiwai not playing in Open Japanese tournaments has absolutely nothing to do with Japanese female pros of course it's absolutely their right and prerogative to allow to play who they want but it's taken 25 years for Japan to recover)), which makes wayyy more sense than including random westerners in what's supposed to be a best of the best league. This is what I've been trying to indirectly say, for 9 years, although in much more polite terms when i was 14, haha. I'm more direct now since I'm now more of a moron and I'm not sure I've all the time in the world. If Europeans and Americans do play top Asians, it would only be if they pass through these preliminary stages first, and that would do wayyy more for the promotion of go than what they do now. It basically seems like western pros are to humour the top pros if we're not wasting their time. On the other hand, if the western pro first came through a preliminary especially because it seemed like the player earned their place among different levels of Asian pros before finally getting to play against top pros, so it actually makes the western pro seem more legitimate, garnering further interest, since he competed against Asian pros even if it was female or Japanese/Taiwanese pros. I mean a lot more interest than if it seems he was just donated a place. I remember it being mentioned that the economic system in the speculative sphere encourages a lot of money to accumulate to the few people who would have the worst investment ideas. Forgive me for using a rather rude analogy as it's not quite what's happening here but relate it in the broadest sense!

Think about it like this. If one thinks it would be nice if the western pros could compete against top Japanese and Taiwanese pros, but ignore the fact fact that they could play top female pros now or actually compete with top female Japanese or Taiwanese pros if we would bother to let them do so, then we don't 'deserve' to have western pros reach the level to compete with Japanese and Taiwanese pros since we deliberately throw away our opportunities for the sake of being randomly . . . sexist ? Throwing away opportunities this way seems to be a common pattern in modern society.

Okay, in china the King/Queen of the new stars is U16 for boys and U18 for girls, this is VERY logical (although youth ANYTHING should be held twice a year). In Korea, female are paired, although unlike in China this logical isn't extended as much to U15 players. It's not logical because these are due to culture, but I hate to break it but those each alone, each culture alone are nowhere near competent enough to make non-go players take us seriously, sorry. I mean you'll probably get strange looks from a Korean, if you thought the GG Auction cup concept was some waste of time. Well that's how it seems to me regarding what I mentioned earlier. You need to learn from all cultures for ultimate success.

Soule Sphere
Top 6 each of South Korea and Beijing-controlled China. It would be good for Beijing-controlled China pros to get more opportunities to play in international tournaments, something they deserve (to that degree I'd like to see more Chinese international tournaments, especially if they're held in Taipei-controlled China). Then the rest of the four places would be the top four from the Heart Hand, hopefully at least Taiwanese or Japanese pros should qualify each time and these days I expect the Japanese to again!

Heart Hand in Japan, to qualify for the Soule Sphere
by origin nationality:
Top 8 female Korean
Top 8 female Taipei-controlled China
Top 8 female Japan
Top 8 female Beijing-controlled China
Top 6 Taipei-controlled China
Top 6 Japan
Top 6 Europe
Top 6 America
Top South Korean Amateur
Top Beijing-controlled amateur
Top North Korea
Top female North Korea
Top 2 non-KJtC amateur
Top Taipei-controlled China amateur
Top Japanese amateur

6 round swiss, but first 8 sets of three rounds occur, then 16 sets of 4, then the last game is determined between the players. The key here is that each league never does all of it's rounds in one session, but rather it's spread out over a large number of sessions each of 4, 8 or 16 pros. This makes it infinitely easier to schedule for pros. I know at the time we directed doubt towards the Japanese newspapers, but looking back Iyama Yuta wold have never had this issue if the organisers of international tournaments didn't stubbornly insist on holding all the games of a round on the same day. Should it be so surprising a pro would have a busy schedule at home? It was be nice if among the posts bemaoning the Japanese sponsors there was just one mentioning how international sponsors might make it easier for Japanese pros and maybe take a few leaves from the page of the best domestic tournament scene for pros. Also, I would like to see the same passion in regards to female pros getting playing opportunities against the strongest Japanese and Taiwanese pros. Again, maybe we do not 'deserve' to have Japanese pros playing in international tournaments due to this omission. Anyway, instead of using one huge floor of their headquarters they could just use a different small room each day. Then each pro can apply to play in the preliminary session that fits her or his schedule, or it could even be done in the main tournament, splitting players into groups of four.

Okay now I seem more of an organisation grump than Lee Sedol without the skill level that qualifies one to speak so I'll stop. Enough on this topic from me hopefully. That one group i would like to praise for following these principles is Senko, they held a seperate tournaments for non-KJC players that is more logical in promoting go than seeding western women into the main rounds.

"The Four Corners of the Earth"

This format is for an exciting quickplay tournament. All the games will be 30m main time with 5 x 30s byo-yomi.

The world is divided into four zones.

* East Asia (CJKT: China, Japan, Korea, Taiwan / Taipei)
* West Asia (the rest of Asia)
* Southern Hemisphere (Latin America, Africa and Oceania)
* the West (North America and Europe)

1. Each country that wants to participate nominates a male player, a female player and a player under 16.

2. The West Asia, Southern Hemisphere, and the West Quarters each play an internal randomly paired Swiss tournament for some rounds. For the sake of argument, seven. This phase of the tournament is online. The player with the most wins is chosen as that Quarter's candidate. If there's a tie between two players, a play off will be held.

3. The four East Asian female and four U16 players play a round robin of seven rounds. Again, ties are resolved by play offs. One player qualifies.

4. In the second stage of the tournament, the four oriental men are combined with the oriental woman or U16, the West Asian, the Southern Hemispherean and the Westerner. This stage takes place in person, somewhere in East Asia, with the organisers paying for the flights.

These eight players are organised into a knockout: the oriental male players are placed in one bracket and the other players are put in the other. The final is a single game, between an East Asian man and any of his possible opponents: a female player, an U16, or a player from outside East Asia. The oriental man takes White and plays without komi.

Benefits:

* Every country who wants to can enter and have some visibility, since Swiss systems are scalable and online games are free.
* Africa is not overrated, like it would be in a continental preliminary format (but is still allowed to compete on equal terms with the rest of the non-oriental world).
* The East Asian male professionals only have to play a maximum of three games, which means a more modest prize can be offered since they don't have to invest much time.
* The craziness of jumbling men, women, young adults and children of many different countries together in random Swisses should be entertaining. The blitz format would encourage upsets and make for especially good spectator sport.

bugcat wrote:"The Four Corners of the Earth"

This format is for an exciting quickplay tournament. All the games will be 30m main time with 5 x 30s byo-yomi.

The world is divided into four zones.

* East Asia (CJKT: China, Japan, Korea, Taiwan / Taipei)
* West Asia (the rest of Asia)
* Southern Hemisphere (Latin America, Africa and Oceania)
* the West (North America and Europe)

1. Each country that wants to participate nominates a male player, a female player and a player under 16.

2. The West Asia, Southern Hemisphere, and the West Quarters each play an internal randomly paired Swiss tournament for some rounds. For the sake of argument, seven. This phase of the tournament is online. The player with the most wins is chosen as that Quarter's candidate. If there's a tie between two players, a play off will be held.

3. The four East Asian female and four U16 players play a round robin of seven rounds. Again, ties are resolved by play offs. One player qualifies.

4. In the second stage of the tournament, the four oriental men are combined with the oriental woman or U16, the West Asian, the Southern Hemispherean and the Westerner. This stage takes place in person, somewhere in East Asia, with the organisers paying for the flights.

These eight players are organised into a knockout: the oriental male players are placed in one bracket and the other players are put in the other. The final is a single game, between an East Asian man and any of his possible opponents: a female player, an U16, or a player from outside East Asia. The oriental man takes White and plays without komi.

Benefits:

* Every country who wants to can enter and have some visibility, since Swiss systems are scalable and online games are free.
* Africa is not overrated, like it would be in a continental preliminary format (but is still allowed to compete on equal terms with the rest of the non-oriental world).
* The East Asian male professionals only have to play a maximum of three games, which means a more modest prize can be offered since they don't have to invest much time.
* The craziness of jumbling men, women, young adults and children of many different countries together in random Swisses should be entertaining. The blitz format would encourage upsets and make for especially good spectator sport.

(bold is mine)

Wow this makes a lot of sense . This is a GOOD context to use Disney time Limits, too! (In addition seems maybe to tap into East asian cultural perspectives on how to be international, so the emotional resonance makes it more likely to be carried out by a company!)

Lots of the things we take for granted as being not only absolutely essential and necessary, but so obviously so to us now it seems strange people in the past didn't see it that way, were once considered 'crazy' so you're probably on the right track. When something is unfamiliar or unrecognisable it seems crazy, but of course that vital important thing one is missing would by definition be unfamiliar and unrecognisable and so seem crazy! Maybe I'll call tournaments/events that take into account normally neglected (and therefore nutritionally starved) considerations Copernican Tournaments.

Additionally, with Taiwan rules. Taiwan-Japan+ Supreme Go League.

7-round swiss preliminary held in Taipei-controlled China for 4 places in the Main tournament. 4 top amateurs between Japan&Taiwan + 4 top amateurs between Korea and Beijing-controlled China + 12 female pros between Japan&Taiwan + 12 female pros between Korea and Beijing-controlled China + 16 between Europe and the Americas + 8 between all places not so far mentioned (rest of Asia including 1 place for north Korea, Africa, etc) + 4 top U16 players worldwide + 4 top O45 players worldwide.

Main Tournament 4 places from preliminary + 24 places among Japan and Taiwan + 4 from Korea and Beijing controlled China
After 5 rounds, the top two in the swiss play two 8 hours per side two-day matches. If each player wins one match, the person who won the last game in the swiss wins the title unless only the other player won their game by more than the komi (or resignation or timeout or forfeit).

(For the last part regarding the last swiss round and title match, I may have by good fortune accidently did a tournament element style the norm population of people following this realm are familiar and comfortable with)

$64,000 equivalent in Taiwanese dollars times log base 2 of their overall position, continuing into the preliminaries although the 4 qualifiers are ordered according to their position in the main tournament.

I will aim to make it by 2025, before I go.

How about a youth-weighted youth tournament?

A competition for players aged 10 to 16, at 6.5 komi, with the older player in every match up taking White.

For every year that White is older than Black, his komi is reduced by a point.