Life In 19x19

I have a big problem.

You see, in the past let's say 6 months or maybe even more figured I can't play this game.

Let me explain, I enjoy go so much that I study professional games all the time.
I watch lectures, I look up joseki and I watch other people play.

But when it comes for me to play, I simply chicken out for some reason and I lose all motivation.

Lately I have tried doing tsumego but I just don't understand how people can do it.

It is so boring it's beyond my understanding. I can see doing this tsumego for maybe 5 minutes a day and even then I get frustrated easily when the problems are hard and I can't read it out. I simply feel dumb.

I figured I like to "study" the game but not play it.

Why is that? Every time I open a go server full of enthusiasm to play, seconds later the feeling is gone and I simply don't want to play.

I believe the biggest problem comes from the following.

As I play someone I notice that I am getting ahead, and I notice that my opponent is making very bad local and whole board moves. However the opponent starts playing vulgar, bad and overplay moves and then sometimes it happens that I lose the whole game (which I am winning by let's say 30 points). This frustrates me and I simply lose my overall motivation to play the game.

I would really like to play the game and enojoy playing but I just can't. I guess I like watching and studying other games since I don't get that feel of losing, the feeling of being stupid. If I am studying the pro game I first check who won, and then as I lay out the stones I always pick the winning side as the side I prefer.

I honestly feel like s*it, and I can't change anything about it (Since I am addicted to go I can't even remove it from my life).

Any comments?

Krama wrote:I have a big problem.

You see, in the past let's say 6 months or maybe even more figured I can't play this game.

Let me explain, I enjoy go so much that I study professional games all the time.
I watch lectures, I look up joseki and I watch other people play.

But when it comes for me to play, I simply chicken out for some reason and I lose all motivation.

Lately I have tried doing tsumego but I just don't understand how people can do it.

It is so boring it's beyond my understanding. I can see doing this tsumego for maybe 5 minutes a day and even then I get frustrated easily when the problems are hard and I can't read it out. I simply feel dumb.

I figured I like to "study" the game but not play it.

Why is that? Every time I open a go server full of enthusiasm to play, seconds later the feeling is gone and I simply don't want to play.

I believe the biggest problem comes from the following.

As I play someone I notice that I am getting ahead, and I notice that my opponent is making very bad local and whole board moves. However the opponent starts playing vulgar, bad and overplay moves and then sometimes it happens that I lose the whole game (which I am winning by let's say 30 points). This frustrates me and I simply lose my overall motivation to play the game.

I would really like to play the game and enjoy playing but I just can't. I guess I like watching and studying other games since I don't get that feel of losing, the feeling of being stupid. If I am studying the pro game I first check who won, and then as I lay out the stones I always pick the winning side as the side I prefer.

I honestly feel like s*it, and I can't change anything about it (Since I am addicted to go I can't even remove it from my life).

Any comments?

Krama, are you me from the past? This sounds so much like me!

Re: not feeling like playing, fear of losing, motivation

Blitz made this for me. I rarely have time for a full, nice game. So, blitz. I hate blitz. But I can fit a game in a 15 minute space, and it teaches losing. Like they say with playing Dwarf Fortress, losing is fun (in a way.) As for motivation, it follows its periods. I've been idling in my go for 2 months (september and october) and now I'm back to tsumego and more concentration in my games. Just a few minutes ago I won a game woo.

Re: "hating" tsumego

I did, too. And do, from time to time. Just like beer, black coffee or yerba mate, it's an acquired taste. Just keep at it. Or, another way, put yourself a hard challenge like I did (well, Namii did.) Doing many tsumego improved not only my play, but my feeling for "the game" as a whole. So, I started seeing tsumego as a needed chore. Also, it's better doing a few each day, as you may already know. A good way to get you doing them is to schedule pauses in your normal work (or student) day when you stretch a little, open a tsumego book and do a couple problems. It can be a lot of tsumego in a little time!

As for tsumego being too hard, do easier tsumego. BUT also do hard (or harder) tsumego. There's nothing better than picking a hairy one and cracking it without checking the solution. And this "smashing your head against the wall" can work wonders. But before doing this, get used to doing a few (5-10) easy tsumego daily. No need to do 50 or 100. Just do a manageable amount, every day (you can skip a day or weekends and don't beat yourself about it, just remember you try to keep at it, and that's it)

Re: motivation when you play stupid

We all play stupid moves, and very stupid moves. Losing your concentration can be due to many reasons, and it's hard to tell, been there, done that. For *being able* to keep your concentration, I do long easy tsumego stretches. Like running very long distance but very slowly. For actually doing it during the games... It's hard to do. Takes practice, and I'm not there.

Re: replaying games

I don't care who wins or loses. I'm just checking on what is interesting or fun in the game.

My first thoughts are that you don't have to play the game to enjoy it. But if you want to improve then you have to play.

Some thoughts on the mental blocks I'm noticing:
Moves that you may consider vulgar or ugly are not necessarily bad moves. They just don't appeal to the same go aesthetic you possess. Many "beautiful" moves are sometimes considered ugly. Guzumi are an example of this. Also as you become stronger, much of the beauty lies in the potential sequences behind the moves and not just the shapes themselves. These might be things to consider.

Looking at it all together, it seems to me that you're in a "mental rut," by which I mean: you want to keep maintaining a certain perspective on what good go should look like. But this hinders you because you don't want to look at the grit of the game but only at the aesthetic. Since you are either unaccustomed to looking at the grit (deep reading) behind moves or don't want to look at it, I feel like these might be contributing factors to how you feel when you look at tsumego or play a game.



So, if you want to be able to play... I recommend re-evaluating what you believe go should look like. I would also think about why you enjoy playing over pro games but dislike tsumego since the only difference is an act of participation. And finally, if the tsumego you're working on can't be solved in 10-15 min, move on. If it's too difficult it'll become frustrating so just skip it. You can always come back to it.

when I reply pro games, I like to try and find the losing move (its hard sometimes, and I can't always do it, but I think the struggle is worth it).

So like you, I look at who won or lost, then go to the end and try and back up until I can find what might possibly be a better move for the losing side. (this is usually easier if I review the game with a dan level friend where we can discuss it together)

But I also feel a little frustrated with my play. I don't like tsumego. And I don't play much, anymore (most people would say that's why I'm not improving, and their probably right)

But I don't really care. I'll never be pro. One day I'd like to be dan level, but I'm in no hurry. I still love the game, and I enjoy watching pro and other high level games.

I also enjoy teaching beginners. I didn't think I would initially, but I really do. Maybe not everything I teach them is correct, but I know enough to at least help them get started. And its fun seeing their faces light up when they start to "get it". I don't have to worry about winning or losing, as I don't have to worry about playing my best game or strongest move. Its a teaching game. I just try to identify their most common weakness and play to help them learn to overcome those. I want them to beat me so they can reduce the handicap and try again. At the same time, I also learn stuff too.

Well, thank you all for your thoughts.

I will do my daily tsumego, but I just hope I won't get bored by it easily.

Honestly if I could switch my watching over pro games addiction for solving tsumego addiction.

I would be so happy

Krama wrote:Well, thank you all for your thoughts.

I will do my daily tsumego, but I just hope I won't get bored by it easily.

Honestly if I could switch my watching over pro games addiction for solving tsumego addiction.

I would be so happy

As I said, aim for a few and don't beat yourself if one day you skip (try not to skip twice in a row though)

You are me except for your hatred of tsumego. I study too mich and play too little. And when I do start to play, I can feel my heartbeat increase while the automatvh button is turning.

Krama wrote:I have a big problem.

You see, in the past let's say 6 months or maybe even more figured I can't play this game.

I believe you can play it. Maybe not like Gu Li and Lee Sedol, but you can play it well.

Let me explain, I enjoy go so much that I study professional games all the time.
I watch lectures, I look up joseki and I watch other people play.

I've found that it's better to simply replay pro games and let them be stored in your subconscious memory, rather than to understand every single reason for why X move was played at Y time in Z game. Also, pro lectures should serve only as a guide. It's up to you to interpret and apply what you see in them. Also remember that some highly sophisticated analysis goes into every move in a pro game and even an in-depth game commentary cannot cover it all; these pros have played many thousands of games and most of us don't have that much experience.

As well, in Go no one piece has any power. It is only the relationship between groups of pieces that has bearing on how a game develops.

But when it comes for me to play, I simply chicken out for some reason and I lose all motivation.

If the fear of losing is the source of your panic, then abolish the need to win. Simply play and observe what happens. If you lose a game, you can review and identify which errors or habits to weed out. It might take a few games for improvement to occur, but consistency is key. Also, avoid analyzing too much during play. Analyze a position only as much as you are able. With time and experience your analytical ability will become stronger and you will be able to read positions more deeply.

Lately I have tried doing tsumego but I just don't understand how people can do it.

. Tsumego are pieces of a game of Go. If you've replayed pro games on a regular basis, you will have some background information to help guide your guesses. If you are not able to get a tsumego right the first time, no need to worry. Tsumego are meant to help you cultivate the ability to read out a position. Soon enough you get it right, then go on to the next one.

It is so boring it's beyond my understanding. I can see doing this tsumego for maybe 5 minutes a day and even then I get frustrated easily when the problems are hard and I can't read it out. I simply feel dumb.

If you are not able to arrive at a solution within 60 seconds, then the tsumego is too difficult for you. It will be more beneficial to do plenty of easy ones. Once you are able to get all of the tsumego in a set level right, then go on to the next set level up. Cumulatively you will build the reading ability to help you solve even the most difficult tsumego. Even Igo Hatsuyoron and Gengen gokyo are solvable if you have enough experience in Go (which is several years' worth).

I figured I like to "study" the game but not play it.

Why is that? Every time I open a go server full of enthusiasm to play, seconds later the feeling is gone and I simply don't want to play.

I believe the biggest problem comes from the following.

As I play someone I notice that I am getting ahead, and I notice that my opponent is making very bad local and whole board moves. However the opponent starts playing vulgar, bad and overplay moves and then sometimes it happens that I lose the whole game (which I am winning by let's say 30 points). This frustrates me and I simply lose my overall motivation to play the game.

Many are the online players that play to win and do anything - even bizarre experimentation - to win, so you have to deal effectively with whatever comes your way in these games. Overplays and bad moves can be easily punished - often by tenuki. It's better to play gote moves that serve your whole-board objective than to play sente moves that provide only local benefit. If you can make your opponent realise that his overplay simply led to you making additional territorial gains or an expansion of your moyo, then that's one more plus for you.

I would really like to play the game and enojoy playing but I just can't. I guess I like watching and studying other games since I don't get that feel of losing, the feeling of being stupid. If I am studying the pro game I first check who won, and then as I lay out the stones I always pick the winning side as the side I prefer.

I honestly feel like s*it, and I can't change anything about it (Since I am addicted to go I can't even remove it from my life).

Any comments?

There is a Japanese proverb that says nanakorobi yaoki - fall down 7 times, get back up 8.

As in boxing and other combat sports, Go is not about winning or losing. Rather, it's about getting knocked down and getting back up. Go has taught me to persist despite constant setbacks. Of course I've lost games, but I simply replay my pro games and play actual games, plus do some tsumego. I find it easier on the mind and soul to concentrate on just improving my game, than to concentrate on winning and losing.

It's definitely nice to be on the winning side, but I prefer to find out why the winning side won and the losing side lost. I believe that replaying games without trying to study them is beneficial when striving to improve one's ability in the game.

For more on whether replaying games helps one get stronger, here is a thread exlopring that question. http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... 4&start=20

I don't consider myself qualified to give any extensive discourse beyond what I've written thus far. Hopefully, this Falun Dafa article on the game of Go will inspire you. http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/articles ... 4468p.html

Krama wrote:I have a big problem....

As I play someone I notice that I am getting ahead, and I notice that my opponent is making very bad local and whole board moves. However the opponent starts playing vulgar, bad and overplay moves and then sometimes it happens that I lose the whole game (which I am winning by let's say 30 points). This frustrates me and I simply lose my overall motivation to play the game.

...

Don't think that you are entitled to win the game just because you are ahead after the opening. Being ahead after the opening doesn't mean you should win the game. It just means you are ahead, but there is a long way to go.

Not sure if you are a football fan, but football teams often get a lead, but then lose at the end because they aren't playing to win - they are playing not to lose. It sounds similar to your Go game.

If you find yourself consistently winning by 30 points from a good opening and yet often end up losing, perhaps your game is telling you to start studying the endgame more.

Maybe you have Online Go Anxiety (http://senseis.xmp.net/?OnlineGoAnxiety)?

I tend to study more than I play, however I enjoy tsumego a lot. I get really anxious and apprehensive about playing games online. All of that seems to go away when I play a game in person with someone.

As already stated: if you want to improve, you need to play. There's no way around that. You don't have to play to enjoy the game, though.

What are your goals?

It sounds like your ego is so tightly wound into your go that it's making it hard to play games and do tsumego because the pain you feel for doing badly is greater than the satisfaction you feel for doing well. Or maybe I'm just diagnosing myself Studying games feels easier because you're just following along, and not being put on the spot, maybe? That's how it is for me. Anyway, it's not an easy problem to solve, and you don't have to! You can just study if you like.

Admitting that your emotions are getting in your way is already a big step! As others have said, tsumego and playing games will help you get better, especially if you've been avoiding them. Objectively, it really really doesn't matter if you lose a game or mess up a problem. Telling yourself this might help. Also, knowing it's hard for you, give yourself an extra big pat on the back for doing these things despite that. In time they'll get easier if you stick with them.

Good luck!

When you study a lot and especially when you study professional games, you tend to identify yourself with a higher level than the one your game actually has. This is a recipe for frustration, which materializes when encountering players who leisurely destroy your allegedly well crafted games with ugly moves.

My antidote would be to play more and study less, unless you want to become a life long non-playing follower of the game (which is a fine goal in itself). If you want to be a go player then play. Refrain from study for a while, especially pro games, because as long as you study "proper play" you will inflate your go-ego, first be frustrated and eventually self defeating.

As for tsumego, do easy ones. Rebuild confidence.

Think of yourself as a beginner and start playing now. After some time, pick up study again. Study in function of your games.

Good luck!

This post really resonates with me, I recognize pretty much all of those problems (and I still rage-uninstall Tygem at least twice a week). I think it stems mostly from two things:

1: Its really hard to translate study material into games. Usually when you read a book of watch a lecture its under a specific theme, like direction of play, joseki choice, fighting fundamentals, etc... so you tend to consider problems from only one perspective. But in a game you have to consider a million other things as well, so you make mistakes which you might have gotten right in a "themed setting".

2: The punishing of bad moves is often not obvious. I can relate to that 100%. Most games I know have more obvious ways to punish bad moves, but in go it's often non intuitive.


Here are the solutions that helped me:

For the tsumego: Set yourself a daily goal. I'm not the biggest fan of tsumego either, but after two weeks or so you get into a routine to do them, so at least it stops to be a major bother.

For the games: Listen to some music while you play. Now this will almost certainly impact your game in a negative way, but loosing will feel like less of a waste of time. If you spend an hour only playing go and loose because of a stupid mistake it will feel really bad, with some good music on that is somewhat negated. You did not ONLY play go, so you got some side entertainment as well out of your time.


I can't guarantee those will work for you, but I'd recommend you give them a try.

Hello Krama and others,

Although I am not your level, it all sounds too familiar.
Please allow me to comment in addition to all the replies and tips above.

From reading your post, I think perhaps there are 3 aspects involved:
-1- fun
-2- surprise
-3- ego

Try to have fun.
Try to enjoy the game, the game play. It is not just about becoming better.

It seems that your perceived fun factor is lessened because of surprises. You do not seem to like surprises. I think that to enjoy the game, you should accept that it's all in the game. People make 'strange' moves. Deal with it.

If you are addicted to the game, you will find your way.

Perhaps an extra tip from this lower level player: play lower level players more often. They make stupid moves, so that you get used to surprises (like unintended vulgar moves and overplay). And while you do, you will most probably win, giving you an ego boost. And if you do not win: you will have to accept the loss, humbling you down a bit which will give you an ego boost as well. (I think you do not like to play taht much online Play some games in real life.

Forgive me for adding a last note: go is a mind game. So, before starting a game, perhaps you can try to reflect on your state of mind.
Are you in the mood for the win, are you in it to learn from surprises, do you just want to spare some time and leisure for the fun of it, what.
Choose accordingly.

Take a break. Don't study professional games (too much). Don't feel obliged to play. Don't feel obliged to become stronger. If you have fun by studying, do so. Good luck, have fun!