Life In 19x19

Since convincing 4:3 Windows tablets are still not available, an Ipad is among my tablet purchase candidates. However, I am not sure if I could use a not rooted Ipad meaningfully.

Is there a file manager (which) for USB / WLAN local transfer from / to Ipad (iOS 8.1) and Windows PC (Windows 7 or 8.1) for an arbitrary number of files of arbitrary file types (and possibly subdirectories)?

If such does not exist, how and with which softwares is USB / WLAN local transfer from / to Ipad and Windows PC possible for an arbitrary number of SGF or GOBOOK files, respectively?

If such is not possible for an abitrary number of SGF and GOBOOK files, how and with which softwares is USB / WLAN local transfer from / to Ipad and Windows PC possible for one file per transfer action?

for applications supporting it, itunes does it via USB. Then many apps support wlan directly

First, it’s spelled “iPad”

Then, it depends on for which iOS Software you want to transfer files … for some you could just send files to your mail address, open those mails on the iPad, and then open attachments in some software. But RBerenguel is right, usually it is best done using iTunes.

Bonobo wrote:First, it’s spelled “iPad”

Then, it depends on for which iOS Software you want to transfer files … for some you could just send files to your mail address, open those mails on the iPad, and then open attachments in some software. But RBerenguel is right, usually it is best done using iTunes.

Sorry for my brief reply, I was on iPad and typing long things is not that great (I recently installed a very interesting new keyboard, though.)

I'll explain with use cases:

SGF files with many comments and variations: Usually I either read NGA reviews in EasyGo or SmartGo Kifu. Since reviews are uploaded to the NGA site, I just browse to it through Safari (iPad's browser), click on the SGF file and I am prompted about which app I'd like to use to open the SGF file (many options here for me, but I usually stick to these two for reviews, sometimes I indulge in using Qipan)

9x9 games I keep on file: for stuff I want classified in some way, I open and save inside EasyGo, since it has a neat folder structure, so I can keep my 9x9 files in one place, problems in another, etc.

Pro games: I usually open them in SmartGo Kifu, since I already have there a lot of pro games. Now I think about it, I don't know if SGK does fuseki search on user-stored SGFs (I'd assume yes, maybe someone else can tell)

.gobooks: I hadn't opened any up until this point, but you are offered SmartGo Kifu as an opener, and it is opened as a go book as expected

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Robert, an iPad does not work like a "normal" computer. The file/directory hierarchy is totally hidden from the user, so uploading files and folders only makes sense if the "destination application" handles it. This may be against what you are used, as it was against what I (and most relatively "tech" users) am used. But you just get used to it. There are applications for handling book/file collections (I recommend GoodReader, it offers normal folder structure on its UI) where you can upload (either via WLAN or USB) folders with PDF files. Others, handle SGF files (EasyGo implements folder structures in its UI, too.) But you need to get used to the way the iPad handles everything: to each file type, its own application. It's weird, I know, but you'll get used to it, trust me.

And if you don't, GoodReader implements its own folder structuring inside, and for each file it understands (mostly document files, like PDF, RDF, text files) you can just open it within the app. And you are also given the option to "open in" another app, so, it can be used as a poor man's file browser/file handler. But this is not the expected mode to use an iPad.

When I write 'local', I mean local. I do not want to use email, cloud, web for local file transfer.

I was aware of the existence of GoodReader, but it does not answer my question as long as I do not know if that works for SGF and GOBOOKS files, their use in SGF and GOBOOKS apps and file transfer in both directions iPad <-> Windows PC.

I thought that iTunes would be for pictures, music and videos only? From what you say, can iTunes also be used for USB transfer in either direction for files and file types of iPad apps programmed to offer this functionality for iTunes? More specifically, which iPad apps for SGF files do support this? Does the app Smart Go Books support it for GOBOOK files? Does EasyGo allow SGF transfer directly or via iTunes between iPad and Windows PC?

Since usually the iPad file structure is hidden from the user, I would use some third party file manager and / or file transfer manager. It seems that some such iPad apps or Windoes softwares for iPad transfer show some file structure, but how (in)complete is it?

Will I "get used to it"? Never, but I guess I would need to live with it nevertheless. Of course, I await the day when iOS becomes useful also for power users. Just imagine an iPad Pro without proper file management - not "pro" at all;)

RobertJasiek wrote:When I write 'local', I mean local. I do not want to use email, cloud, web for local file transfer.

I was aware of the existence of GoodReader, but it does not answer my question as long as I do not know if that works for SGF and GOBOOKS files, their use in SGF and GOBOOKS apps and file transfer in both directions iPad <-> Windows PC.

GoodReader can't handle at all neither SGF nor Gobooks files. Since it can't handle them, when you upload SGFs or Gobook files and try to open them, GoodReader will ask you which app you want to use among apps "offering to handle" this kind of files. Then SmarGo will be among the availables and you'd just open them, changing apps though.

RobertJasiek wrote:I thought that iTunes would be for pictures, music and videos only? From what you say, can iTunes also be used for USB transfer in either direction for files and file types of iPad apps programmed to offer this functionality for iTunes? More specifically, which iPad apps for SGF files do support this? Does the app Smart Go Books support it for GOBOOK files? Does EasyGo allow SGF transfer directly or via iTunes between iPad and Windows PC?

IIRC EasyGo offers iTunes file transfer without any fuss, likewise for SmartGo Kifu, GoodReader and in general most apps that work with "documents" (i.e. if you can create a "new file" in the app, it usually offers iTunes file transfer.) I can't really tell how many of my current-installed apps offer it though (except for these three and a few choosen ones) since I no longer plug the iPad to my computer for anything, I do everything either from email or wireless transfer. Syncinc via iTunes is somewhat slower (well, used to be slower, now it's better but I need to bring a cable and I'm lazy like that.)

RobertJasiek wrote:Since usually the iPad file structure is hidden from the user, I would use some third party file manager and / or file transfer manager. It seems that some such iPad apps or Windoes softwares for iPad transfer show some file structure, but how (in)complete is it?

In general terms, if an app offers iTunes file transfer, you can use some 3rd party application to transfer documents to/from the iPad to your computer (for Mac I use iBrowse.) In some sense it's a layer on top of what iTunes can do, sometimes more convenient. As for how incomplete it is... 100%. On an iPad you won't have a "Documents" folder where you can dump everything and then open the required document from the correct app. Each app has its own structure and can only access its own file system, except using the "Open In" method which is available from most apps (EasyGo offers Open In so you can open SGF files using other apps instead, GoodReader offers it for any kind of file, even if it can handle it on its own.)

RobertJasiek wrote:Will I "get used to it"? Never, but I guess I would need to live with it nevertheless. Of course, I await the day when iOS becomes useful also for power users. Just imagine an iPad Pro without proper file management - not "pro" at all;)

Well, I can definitely say you can get used to it. It's just another paradigm. It's less useful in some aspects, more useful in others (i.e. I don't need to wonder where I store *that* PDF file, since I know which app I use for PDF files.)

I don't miss a file browser on most occasions, and I'm definitely a power user of all my devices. Matter-of-factly, my Android phone has a file browser and it doesn't help much once you have app containers like in iOS for security.

Edit: iTunes file transfer is "slower" in the sense that once you plug your iThingy, iTunes will check its integrity, maybe back up some data, upload/download new content so both machines are in sync, etc. You can disable most of this time suckers, but it's still slightly slower than just transferring wirelessly.

So far I think you have confirmed that the following is possible:

- Transfer of one SGF file from iPad to Windows PC.
- Transfer of one SGF file from Windows PC to iPad.

It is still unclear to me if the following works:

- Transfer of many SGF files from iPad to Windows PC.
- Transfer of many SGF files from Windows PC to iPad.
- Transfer of one GOBOOK file from iPad to Windows PC.
- Transfer of one GOBOOK file from Windows PC to iPad.
- Transfer of many GOBOOK files from iPad to Windows PC.
- Transfer of many GOBOOK files from Windows PC to iPad.

RobertJasiek wrote:Since usually the iPad file structure is hidden from the user, I would use some third party file manager and / or file transfer manager. It seems that some such iPad apps or Windoes softwares for iPad transfer show some file structure, but how (in)complete is it?

Will I "get used to it"? Never, but I guess I would need to live with it nevertheless. Of course, I await the day when iOS becomes useful also for power users. Just imagine an iPad Pro without proper file management - not "pro" at all;)

Look at it this way (I am trying to teach you something here):

What is "file management" in its strict and original sense?
You have a bunch of paper files, bunch of drawers, and a bunch of sticker. You lick a sticker, stick it to the paper file, and place the tile in a drawer of your night-stand, or something. If you are lucky, you stick to some kind of logical system which makes sense, and hopefully you will not have to reorganize everything over and over, since one month you need it all by date, while the next by name. What a mess.

Now enter the "computer".
File management is much easier there - its all just organized into folders for you instead of drawers, but you still have to come up with meaningful names, and folder names, and what not. Hopefully you will come up with a system that makes sense. People coming into such system from the "traditional" paper-and-sticker file system must be thinking like you - "oh my, I will never get used to it". Especially when they learn that the files on the computer are not really stored in actual folders and sub-folders, but are all over the hard-drive, often fragmented and dispersed, and the whole filename/folder/sub-folder illusion is just that - virtual presentation virtually created by your OS, and having absolutely nothing to do with the way the data is actually stored. Its whole purpose is to dump on the user the work of filing and organizing the data, and smudge the fact that the OS is not good enough to do this simple task for you. Almost like computers never happened.

iOS is simply taking this abstraction and virtualization to its final, logical conclusion.
The idea being: Why should the user be bothered with how the files are organized, named, foldered, and stored? Why should the user have to lick stickers and worry about meaningful naming conventions? All the user wants, really, is simply this: call up information and have it appear on the screen. Nothing else. And the whole file structure and organization is just a way around imperfect data presentation. Its all so 90s....

So iOS neatly side-steps this whole mess by giving the user exactly what he/she wants and not burdening the user with the need to work out filing systems and then sticking to those systems... It just gives you the info you need, with the app you need to display it in correct form. Simple, elegant, no hassle.

So why do you feel you need access to "file structure" if all you really need is the file you want at the time you want it? iOS does it for you, as does any decent OS (obviously excluding Windows here, for painfully obvious reasons.) The rest is just unnecessary.

Its called progress, and making things better. Otherwise, we would all be still licking stickers.

Heh...

PS>
Seriously, I share your pain.
My advice - don't get an iPad until they come up with one having a USB port. If you really want a good small portable device, go for Apple Air, only slightly more expensive.

Still, a lot of what I wrote above holds true. When you think about it, you don't really care how the files are organized, as long as you can get the info you want quickly. Its much more convenient this way, and much less hassle.

Bantari, access to the file system for application data eases access to the files. Otherwise the object name is the only simple access information. Object names would have to become much longer so as to contain what would otherwise be in the path. When all naming is in the object name, then it becomes a very time consuming burden to find an object. Maybe this is no problem as long as one has only a few objects of a type on one's computer. I have thousands to hundreds of thousands per type. Without file system, access to objects becomes impractical because gaining access consumes as much time as viewing or editing the object. It is the opposite of progress.

(The indexed Windows search also fails. Maybe it works for a few files. For my numbers of files, indexed searching is much slower than ordinary searching. Therefore I deactivate the indexing.)

RobertJasiek wrote:So far I think you have confirmed that the following is possible:

- Transfer of one SGF file from iPad to Windows PC.
- Transfer of one SGF file from Windows PC to iPad.

It is still unclear to me if the following works:

- Transfer of many SGF files from iPad to Windows PC.
- Transfer of many SGF files from Windows PC to iPad.
- Transfer of one GOBOOK file from iPad to Windows PC.
- Transfer of one GOBOOK file from Windows PC to iPad.
- Transfer of many GOBOOK files from iPad to Windows PC.
- Transfer of many GOBOOK files from Windows PC to iPad.

The amount of files is not a problem, from either side. iTunes file sharing is for files, not just necessarily a single file. Or for folders.

Ok, thanks. This leaves the questions whether GOBOOK files can be transfered from / to iPad / Windows PC.

RobertJasiek wrote:Ok, thanks. This leaves the questions whether GOBOOK files can be transfered from / to iPad / Windows PC.

They can be transferred into via email or any method not involving iTunes, and read, but they are not stored anywhere I can find within SmartGo Kifu. They can't be taken out, at least for now from what I have seen, since you can't really edit them with SGK. Probably Anders is working on it, maybe he can chime in.

RobertJasiek wrote:Bantari, access to the file system for application data eases access to the files. Otherwise the object name is the only simple access information. Object names would have to become much longer so as to contain what would otherwise be in the path. When all naming is in the object name, then it becomes a very time consuming burden to find an object. Maybe this is no problem as long as one has only a few objects of a type on one's computer. I have thousands to hundreds of thousands per type. Without file system, access to objects becomes impractical because gaining access consumes as much time as viewing or editing the object. It is the opposite of progress.

(The indexed Windows search also fails. Maybe it works for a few files. For my numbers of files, indexed searching is much slower than ordinary searching. Therefore I deactivate the indexing.)

Suppose I want to find all games played by Go Seigen in the period 1940-1949. How do I organize my file system to easily find them?

With a traditional tree structure file system, there is no real clean way to do this.

The better approach is to have meta-data about files, which is actually what modern devices are moving towards. If you make a single application responsible for organizing all SGF files, then each SGF file added to the device is read by that application for its metadata, and the application organizes them with a database. The path to the file becomes irrelevant to the end user.

While databases and meta-data have their uses, they are in many cases more inefficient than directories for organising files. I have never found meta-data to be more useful; instead, I have estimated that meta-data would cost me ca. 20 times as much time to organise my files (and then miss the advantages of databases). For one file type, I use both directories and a manually maintained database because I want to access those files in two different manners; the database does not replace the directories though. If I replaced directories by databases for all files types, it would cost me ca. 20 times as much time to organise all my files (I tried, so I know). Automatically created meta-data or databases replacing directories would waste even much more time because the data would not suit my access needs. Exception: kombilo, but it is only good for pattern queries and the like, not for other SGF access.

RobertJasiek wrote:While databases and meta-data have their uses, they are in many cases more inefficient than directories for organising files. I have never found meta-data to be more useful; instead, I have estimated that meta-data would cost me ca. 20 times as much time to organise my files (and then miss the advantages of databases). For one file type, I use both directories and a manually maintained database because I want to access those files in two different manners; the database does not replace the directories though. If I replaced directories by databases for all files types, it would cost me ca. 20 times as much time to organise all my files (I tried, so I know). Automatically created meta-data or databases replacing directories would waste even much more time because the data would not suit my access needs. Exception: kombilo, but it is only good for pattern queries and the like, not for other SGF access.

Ok, so, with your method, how do you find all games by Go Seigen in the period 1940-1949?