My first joseki book, when I was 4 kyu, was about joseki mistakes. For me that was a good way to start my study of joseki. Instead of trying to memorize what to do, learning why certain plays were bad I felt helped me to understand go better.
| Life In 19x19 http://lifein19x19.com/ |
|
| How should I begin studying Joseki? http://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=11185 |
Page 1 of 2 |
| Author: | Joelnelsonb [ Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | How should I begin studying Joseki? |
I would ask when I should start studying joseki, however, I've seen a lot of debate around this and feel like its the wrong way to think about it. I'm a Chess player. If a beginner asked me "when should I start studying openings?", I would instantly realize that the player has a flaw in his or her understanding of what an opening is. A better question is: how should I begin studying opening variations? Because there is no particular time in a player's progression that deems them "ready for openings". A player can learn an opening the first day they learn the game as long as they grasp the fundamental concepts involved instead of simple memorization of the moves. What's important is that you understand the strategy behind what you're actually doing so that you comprehend (if only on a basic level) what the reason is behind each and every move and are therefore ready to make variations as applicable. I have some Chess games where my opponent brings out his queen early on and it changes everything about my plan, but, being a seasoned player, I simply adjust and re-establish my strategy based on the dynamic of the present game; this is all that's needed at a beginners level to get into opening study. This being said, I don't feel like I should be waiting to achieve a specific kyu level or profound understanding of the game. I feel like I could greatly benefit from studying joseki from right where I am now as long as I'm focused on the ultimate concept and not the specific move-to-move. So, any suggestion on the best way to jump into the world of joseki and get the most applicable, practical benefit most efficiently? |
|
| Author: | Bill Spight [ Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How should I begin studying Joseki? |
My first joseki book, when I was 4 kyu, was about joseki mistakes. For me that was a good way to start my study of joseki. Instead of trying to memorize what to do, learning why certain plays were bad I felt helped me to understand go better.
|
|
| Author: | moyoaji [ Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How should I begin studying Joseki? |
Normally my advice is to study joseki with the exact attitude that you described. As long as you are learning the joseki by trying to understand why the moves are played instead of which moves are played I think you are in a good spot. If you are looking for resources, Sensei's Library could be a good place to start. There are several joseki dictionary sites like DailyJoseki and Josekipedia. There are also a number of YouTube videos that discuss various joseki. All of these are good, but the best way to benefit from them is to learn the general concepts behind each and then try to apply them in your games. In the words of Ms. Frizzle: "Take chances, make mistakes, get messy!" When you learn a joseki, try to play it in your games. Don't worry too much about whether the direction of play is correct, just try it out. See what happens with the stones in the opening, mid-game, and late game. Once you understand a joseki from that perspective you'll know when to use it correctly. And for that, few people can help you. Even professionals struggle when choosing a joseki in a given situation. It is not easy, but then something worth doing rarely is. |
|
| Author: | Kirby [ Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How should I begin studying Joseki? |
Join the Yunguseng Dojang
|
|
| Author: | EdLee [ Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Hi Joel, I haven't read Robert's Joseki fundamental books, but I wonder if you may enjoy them ? ( I may consider to buy the first one, after my travels. )Joelnelsonb wrote: as long as I'm focused on the ultimate concept In your experience with chess, would you say there is "an ultimate concept" in studying the opening, and if so, what would you say it is ?
|
|
| Author: | RobertJasiek [ Thu Dec 11, 2014 11:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How should I begin studying Joseki? |
Before studying josekis, an absolute beginner must be able to assess by reading the status of connections, cuts, simple captures and escapes from simple captures. When studying josekis, start with the simplest josekis, such as consisting of only 4 moves. The key to studying joseki is understanding. This is so when beginning the study and when proceeding the study as an intermediate or strong player. Therefore, study those joseki explanations providing both the joseki move sequences and all the explanations of the go theory for the moves, sequences and their embedding in positional contexts, as listed below. When beginning joseki study, these are the first important topics of go theory: - connection - life - (good) direction - stability - strong shapes - excess number of stones played - territory - influence: As a beginner, one must first understand what is influence, that strong live shapes are valuable, that a player's greater influence can balance the opponent's greater territory, that influence is valuable because it can be used to generate future territory. Using influence well is a topic for players of all ranks, but already a beginner should understand at least the basics of influence. Beginners must overcome the mistake of creating outside walls and then not using them at all. There are many josekis with sharing of territory versus influence, but a player can only appreciate why they are josekis by understanding the value of influence and aiming at using influence well. - (shape) weaknesses - how and when to extend - why to cut - why to capture - what, why and how to sacrifice - when to play elsewhere - flexibility - efficiency - knowing typical peaceful results, types of fights, purposes of groups, construction, destruction and fighting - recognising and defending weak important groups - regocnising wider spaces and (more) valuable regions - relations to friendly stones versus opposing stones Beyond these aspects of starting joseki study, intermediate players also need the following: - assessing and relating values of territory and influence - recognising fair results - recognising fair fights - possibilities - knowing more types of moves, concepts and purposes - (good) strategic choices and options or offering them - detailed understanding of how to contruct a joseki - interrupted construction - temporary dangers and actions - deeper understanding of how to construct groups |
|
| Author: | Elom [ Thu Dec 11, 2014 11:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How should I begin studying Joseki? |
I think it's also fairly common to simply research moves that you were confused about during a game. If you vow to play one new move that you are not sure is jonseok yet, you can look at an explanation of the move you played, seeing not necessarily weather it is correct, but if the purpose was what you thought it was. I think it sets a fairly steady pace of joseki learning, as unlike tsumego, it's difficult to learn joseki when you are not playing many actual games. note: try focusing on learning the simplest variations of a jonseok until you're comfortable, before moving onto more complicated variations. In is't necessary to try extremely hard to remeber a joseki if you understand it "well" |
|
| Author: | Joelnelsonb [ Fri Dec 12, 2014 12:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: |
EdLee wrote: Hi Joel, I haven't read Robert's Joseki fundamental books, but I wonder if you may enjoy them ? ( I may consider to buy the first one, after my travels. )Joelnelsonb wrote: as long as I'm focused on the ultimate concept In your experience with chess, would you say there is "an ultimate concept" in studying the opening, and if so, what would you say it is ?Certainly! the ultimate idea behind any opening is simple:attack the center, get all minor pieces into action, castle the king, bring forth the queen, centralize the rooks on open files etc. Of course there are exceptions to this but this is the basic framework of a Chess strategy. |
|
| Author: | EdLee [ Fri Dec 12, 2014 1:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Joelnelsonb wrote: Certainly! the ultimate idea behind any opening is simple: ( formatted a bit )
Hi Joel, That's already FIVE+ items, versus "one ultimate idea". ( Perhaps you don't mean one ultimate idea, after all ? )
|
|
| Author: | Aidoneus [ Fri Dec 12, 2014 8:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How should I begin studying Joseki? |
Hi Joel, Assuming that you are a complete beginner, you want a bit of opening guidance (aka, opening principles) rather than have any need to study particular joseki sequences. For a gentle introduction to fuseki (opening) start with Opening Theory Made Easy by Otake Hideo (see http://senseis.xmp.net/?OpeningTheoryMadeEasy). If you are past the corner-side-center development stage, I highly recommend Fuseki Small Encyclopedia by the Nihon Ki-in [Japanese Go Association] (see http://senseis.xmp.net/?FusekiTheBook). I ordered a used copy of this out of print book almost the moment that I started reading my library copy. As others have pointed out, you can look up particular josekis online (for example, see http://senseis.xmp.net/?Joseki and http://eidogo.com/). And of course, many people at L19 recommend Robert's books on joseki theory, which I cannot speak to as I haven't read them--I am inclined to wait until I am stronger. |
|
| Author: | Bill Spight [ Fri Dec 12, 2014 9:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How should I begin studying Joseki? |
Elom wrote: unlike tsumego, it's difficult to learn joseki when you are not playing many actual games. Also unlike tsumego, whether a play is joseki or not does not always have a clear answer. Some joseki have remained the same for as far back as we have game records. OTOH, a lot of joseki from 100 years ago seem strange to us now. It is not always clear why joseki have been abandoned, and joseki do make comebacks. |
|
| Author: | Bill Spight [ Fri Dec 12, 2014 9:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Re: |
Joelnelsonb wrote: Certainly! the ultimate idea behind any {chess} opening is simple:attack the center, get all minor pieces into action, castle the king, bring forth the queen, centralize the rooks on open files etc. I like how people describe such things as simple. 
|
|
| Author: | paK0 [ Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Re: |
Bill Spight wrote: Joelnelsonb wrote: Certainly! the ultimate idea behind any {chess} opening is simple:attack the center, get all minor pieces into action, castle the king, bring forth the queen, centralize the rooks on open files etc. I like how people describe such things as simple. I would argue that in chess the opening is in fact the most simple phase of the game, and some basic principles get you pretty far. |
|
| Author: | EdLee [ Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
paK0 wrote: I would argue that in chess the opening is in fact the most simple phase of the game, and some basic principles get you pretty far. |
|
| Author: | Suji [ Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How should I begin studying Joseki? |
Chess openings are anything but simple. Sure, you can get by with general principles, but sometimes the move that violates the principles is the correct move. |
|
| Author: | paK0 [ Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How should I begin studying Joseki? |
Well yes, there are exceptions for everything, but from what I've heard better players say you should not study the opening beyond the basic principles until you are about the strength of a titled player. I think it was in "rapid chess improvement" where the author had some amateur games analyzed by an engine. Generally the win probability was often somewhat even during the opening, but extremely jumpy during the middle game, which means this is the area where most mistakes happen. This is also in canon with the advice you get online if you as what to do to get better. The most common answer is always: Tactics. But personally I'm a mediocre player at best and haven't played in quite some while, so players of other strengths may disagree^^ |
|
| Author: | moyoaji [ Fri Dec 12, 2014 5:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How should I begin studying Joseki? |
Suji wrote: Chess openings are anything but simple. Sure, you can get by with general principles, but sometimes the move that violates the principles is the correct move. I believe that the idea here is chess openings are simple compared to the rest of the game. I would tend to agree that both chess and go openings are easier to understand than the midgame. Neither of these games are simple at any point when compared to more basic games. It's like when people say that go is to chess as chess is to tic tac toe: they are not implying that chess is simple. They are saying that go is just that much more complex. |
|
| Author: | Suji [ Fri Dec 12, 2014 5:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How should I begin studying Joseki? |
moyoaji wrote: Suji wrote: Chess openings are anything but simple. Sure, you can get by with general principles, but sometimes the move that violates the principles is the correct move. I believe that the idea here is chess openings are simple compared to the rest of the game. I would tend to agree that both chess and go openings are easier to understand than the midgame. Neither of these games are simple at any point when compared to more basic games. It's like when people say that go is to chess as chess is to tic tac toe: they are not implying that chess is simple. They are saying that go is just that much more complex. Fair enough. |
|
| Author: | Joelnelsonb [ Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: |
EdLee wrote: Joelnelsonb wrote: Certainly! the ultimate idea behind any opening is simple: ( formatted a bit )
Hi Joel, That's already FIVE+ items, versus "one ultimate idea". ( Perhaps you don't mean one ultimate idea, after all ? )Fair enough, let me re simplify: Get all your pieces into the action. Just like in Go how you can't afford to make slow plays, in Chess you can't afford to have pieces doing nothing. |
|
| Author: | EdLee [ Fri Dec 12, 2014 11:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Joelnelsonb wrote: let me re simplify: Get all your pieces into the action. Just like in Go how you can't afford to make slow plays, in Chess you can't afford to have pieces doing nothing. Yes, of course, but this amounts to saying "play good moves". ( Notice, also, you don't really mean ALL your pieces in action, either; you want to wait or postpone certain pieces, like some pawns. Chess, like Go, is so full of exceptions... very, very difficult to come up with "one ultimate concept" )If you're looking for or advocating "one ultimate" anything in Go or in chess, especially for beginners, it's very very tricky.
|
|
| Page 1 of 2 | All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ] |
| Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/ |
|
