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A trick play
Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 12:45 pm
by Shaddy
Here is a trick play which I learned a few years ago, probably on this forum or godiscussions.
$$c A joseki?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c A joseki?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Does anyone know how to deal with it? I actually can't find anything that works early in the game (later, it's alright for W to take the corner, but I'm not sure how good that is early.) Tenuki is my best idea.
Re: A trick play
Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 1:12 pm
by Uberdude
Just take the ponnuki and accept the forcing moves is also possible: yes it's following black's plan, but you get strong and the corner still has some aji in it.
Re: A trick play
Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 4:47 pm
by Kirby
Josekipedia shows some variations.
Re: A trick play
Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 4:50 pm
by ez4u
What's the trick?
Re: A trick play
Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 6:35 pm
by Shaddy
The trick is that White shouldn't push into the elephant's jump;
$$c A joseki?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 3 6 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 4 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c A joseki?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 3 6 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 4 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
8 as an extension leaves pretty bad aji. Uberdude, I think I agree with you now, but I'm still curious if anyone can find a sharp refutation. That move looks so ridiculous!
Re: A trick play
Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2014 6:46 pm
by DrStraw
$$c
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 3 4 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 2 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 7 . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 3 4 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 2 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 7 . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
What's wrong with this? White has a strong group, pretty much unassailable and black has nothing to get excited about. Don't forget, black played first in this corner, so if white ends up with sente after another black more there is nothing wrong with black getting about ten points more for their combined efforts. If black plays tenuki now there is plenty for white to take advantage of.
Re: A trick play
Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:53 am
by Elom
Ironically, I learnt it two days ago, and I must say that I "liked" black, although not thinking black is better. Maybe the person who showed this as a trick play slightly preferred white? Looks like joseki anyway, so used it
why is it a "trick play" ?
Re: A trick play
Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 10:48 am
by Vesa
This reminds me about a Formula 1 proverb: "You can't win the race on the first corner."
Exceptions allowed.
Cheers,
Vesa
Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:36 pm
by EdLee
Vesa wrote:a Formula 1 proverb
Exceptions allowed.
Hi Vesa,
It's nice to know these proverbs show up everywhere,
and they are all so full of traps (exceptions).
Re: A trick play
Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 2:22 pm
by logan
DrStraw wrote:$$c
$$ ---------------------
$$ . . . . . 0 . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 6 3 4 9 . . . |
$$ . . . . 8 2 5 . . . . |
$$ . , . . . 7 . 1 . . . |
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$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------
$$ . . . . . 0 . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 6 3 4 9 . . . |
$$ . . . . 8 2 5 . . . . |
$$ . , . . . 7 . 1 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
What's wrong with this? White has a strong group, pretty much unassailable and black has nothing to get excited about. Don't forget, black played first in this corner, so if white ends up with sente after another black more there is nothing wrong with black getting about ten points more for their combined efforts. If black plays tenuki now there is plenty for white to take advantage of.
Good position for White. As anyone who's studied this shape in ancient Chinese games can say, it's a treasure trove of aji and forcing moves for White -- even with a followup move by Black.
Re: A trick play
Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 2:27 pm
by oren
This play was covered in the latest Japanese Go World by Oya Kouichi 9p. I'll try to summarize a few parts of it when I have some more time later.
For anyone who wants to read directly,
https://e-gobooks.nihonkiin.or.jp/produ ... ct_id=2042