Life In 19x19

So I've wondered this ever since I got into Go but at first I just assumed I didn't understand the game enough yet. Well, I certainly have worlds left to learn but I've also made a lot of progress (thanks to most of you, btw) and I still can't figure out how a half point for white is fair. I mean, lets say you give white the 6 points komi for a supposed even game and then gave white the half point for a 6 and a half point total komi in order to avoid draws. Well, basically what you're saying is "in the event of a draw, white wins". Why shouldn't black get the half point? And if you say "well, white moves second", I would say that white has already been compensated for that with komi. So it makes no sense that white should win every draw by default. Furthermore, I don't like the idea of avoiding draws. I believe an occasional draw keeps the game pure. Without draws, you're saying that one side has an advantage that can't be overcome with best play on both sides. In other words, with a perfect game like Chess (bare with me), perfect play on both sides will result in a draw everytime, 100 out of 100. That's because neither side has any advantage (again, bare with me; I don't consider white to have any advantage despite having a slightly better winning percentage). By eliminating draws, you're making it so that black can't win if white plays perfectly (if such a thing is theoretically possible; I believe it's called playing the "Divine Move"...?) Anyways, got to thinking more about it after watching the game in Hikaru No Go between Sai and the Meijin where Sai wins by a half point (sorry for the spoiler).I believe the actual game was played by Rin Kaiho (9 Dan) as black and Yoda Norimoto (9 Dan) as white.

Joelnelsonb wrote: basically what you're saying is "in the event of a draw, white wins".

yes, that's exactly what you're saying.

Joelnelsonb wrote: I don't like the idea of avoiding draws.

So, don't use the .5 komi.
There's nothing wrong with Jigo (tie).

Beginners assume that komi is a part of rules of go like capturing or ko..

It is not. You don't have to play with komi if you don't want to (komi doesn't make any difference in beginner games anyway, only when you reach SDK will it mean more but even then the games tend to be chaotic)

You can take a 20 komi, or 20.5 if you want to be sure there will be no draws.

You can even take negative komi if you are playing against someone stronger and you don't want to play vs handicap stones.

Komi is just a way to make the game more balanced and fun, it is not a part of rules.

Joelnelsonb wrote: I still can't figure out how a half point for white is fair. I mean, lets say you give white the 6 points komi for a supposed even game and then gave white the half point for a 6 and a half point total komi in order to avoid draws. Well, basically what you're saying is "in the event of a draw, white wins". Why shouldn't black get the half point? And if you say "well, white moves second", I would say that white has already been compensated for that with komi. So it makes no sense that white should win every draw by default.

But maybe white got 7 komi and then black got half a point so that black wins draws.

Some reasons that komi was introduced and is still used:

It has been understood for at least 150 years that in go Black has a significant advantage coming from the first move. The komi, an abbreviated Japanese of the word "compensation" borrowed from English, is intended to neutralize the advantage Black has from having the first move. Once professional tournaments begun to play more often, Black's advantage created a problem. One solution was to have each "game" between two players become a two game match with each player playing white in one game and black in the other. This made tournaments more expensive for sponsors and take longer to finish.

See this SL link for more information on komi: http://senseis.xmp.net/?Komi

I agree that if you want to play with jigo you should play with jigo. Sometimes a tie can feel very rewarding as a player, a hard fought game that almost seems to end in a compromise.

From a tournament point of view, ties make the setup more complex I think. It's dead simple to arrange and understand single-elimination brackets, which seem very common in professional go tournaments. If the game is jigo, who should be eliminated?

Joelnelsonb wrote:with a perfect game like Chess (bare with me), perfect play on both sides will result in a draw everytime, 100 out of 100.

But this is only your belief, not a proven fact.

Computers have already solved checkers and mancala: yes, they are both draws with perfect play. But not yet for chess or Go -- it's still an open question.

Yes 6.5 komi is 100% unfair.... to either black or white. But I don't know who, maybe there is a 50% chance it's unfair to black and a 50% chance that it's unfair to white.

So that means it's fair.

Fair when I win by 0.5, so very unfair when I loose.

As a beginner, there is no need at all to worry about Komi. You will NOT encounter a drawn game as often as you suspect apparently.

In the Berlin Crane's Tournament, they have NO Komi.

This year, 364 games were played in the tournament, with 2 Jigo only.
One of these Jigo appeared in a game between 5d / 4d, the other one between 2k / 3k.

@Edlee, well the situation is not really the same for go and chess. For chess, the question is if perfect play leads to draw. For go the question is what the magnitude of fair komi is (most people agree it is > 0, and yes there is no proof --- but the sign of komi has nothing to do with the half point). I definitely agree with the OP that the half point is unfair --- if B and W both play perfectly, the result should of course be a draw!

Sennahoj wrote:I definitely agree with the OP that the half point is unfair --- if B and W both play perfectly, the result should of course be a draw!

In this case I would like to suggest accepting the half point as a integral part of "Tournament Rules".

As a matter of course, there is really no need to apply this on "private" games.

Sennahoj wrote:there is no proof
if B and W both play perfectly, the result should of course be a draw!

Hi Senn, could you elaborate ? Your 2 statements seem to contradict each other: that there is no proof that perfect play would lead to a draw.
How do you know ?

Although there is no proof for the correct value of komi, there is proof that it exists and that it is not smaller than 0. The correct komi is well-defined, it is the amount of points by which black wins if both players play perfectly (which may be 0). Given that the definition of correct komi is basically "the amount of compensation white needs to get a draw if both players play perfectly", then obviously, by circular reasoning, with the correct komi perfect play leads to a draw.

HermanHiddema wrote:Although there is no proof for the correct value of komi, there is proof that it exists and that it is not smaller than 0. The correct komi is well-defined, it is the amount of points by which black wins if both players play perfectly (which may be 0). Given that the definition of correct komi is basically "the amount of compensation white needs to get a draw if both players play perfectly", then obviously, by circular reasoning, with the correct komi perfect play leads to a draw.

What was the proof that the correct value of komi is not smaller than zero?