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#247 tentano v. hailthorn

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=11233

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#247 tentano v. hailthorn

Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 10:36 am
by hailthorn011
A new game begins! Good luck tentano.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Captures- :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm thinking of using the sanrensei for this game.

Re: #247 tentano v. hailthorn

Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 11:19 am
by tentano
A new game has begun! Have fun, hailthorn!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Captures- :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I have no idea what I'm doing in the opening.
As white, I simply pick between 3-4, 4-4, 4-5 and 3-3 and whether I want to play a cross-opening game or not.
It's the best knowledge I have, so I'll just go with it. I have no real idea what thoughts go on in the mind of a player who spends more than a picosecond thinking about their first move. As far as I'm concerned, that's just wasting clock time, or worse, if there's no timer, those thoughts must be completely irrelevant.

In general, I don't actually feel like I'm making real choices until the first 20 or so moves have been played.

What I do know, is that if I veer off the path with a limited set of essentially random moves I end up with a much more difficult game.

I'm actually ceding 100% of the initiative to my opponent. This is okay, though. I tend to win 55% of my games as white. I'm slightly better at ruining other people's initiatives than I am at devising my own. I only win about 48% of my games as black.

My main curiosity is to see how well (or badly) I play when hasty, hot-headed mistakes are cut out of the equation. I'm used to having 25 minutes on the clock, and that forces me to decide the vast bulk of my moves on instinct. I can only sit back and consider a few moves, the rest needs to be done within seconds.

Now, the official guidelines tell me it's fine to play only once every other day. If I can spend an hour on EACH MOVE, I could consider all non-insane moves, and eliminate them one by one until I'm left with only one. This seems an enormous luxury. Can I leverage this paradigm into new synergies, however? I'll find out as the game continues.

Re: #247 tentano v. hailthorn

Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 12:20 pm
by hailthorn011
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Captures- :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I changed my mind. I'm gonna use the kobayahshi fuseki if possible!

Re: #247 tentano v. hailthorn

Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:05 pm
by tentano
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Captures- :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , W . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Hm. Nothing happening yet. High chinese opening?
We shall see!
Nirensei always seemed like the thing to do as white. But why be so predictable? I hope to throw in a bit of excitement into this game.

Re: #247 tentano v. hailthorn

Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:10 pm
by hailthorn011
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Captures- :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Interesting move. I didn't see that one coming. I'm not sure what to do now. Do I respond to that move or play out the kobayashi opening? I know C16 would be fairly big, but I suppose I could simply interject with G17 if necessary. :study:

Regardless, I'm definitely going to make more of an effort to read in this game than I have in previous games. Can't promise what I'll read out will be correct (let's face it, it'll be wrong) but I'll try!

Re: #247 tentano v. hailthorn

Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 3:52 pm
by tentano
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Captures- :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 4 . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . W , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Diagram doesn't draw for me. I hope that's a temporary difficulty...
If it's something I did wrong while writing it, I don't know what it is.

Okay, there's some things to choose, here.
F5, to push black along the bottom side towards Q3
E3, the infamous kick, to push myself up to E16.
C6, C7, D6 or D7, to run directly towards E16.
H3 or H4, the near pincer in order to interrupt the link to Q3
J3 or J4, the medium pincer with roughly the same plan, but a little fuzzier.
K3 or K4, the far pincer which is really fuzzy. Does it even put pressure on F3?
Q5, bold and combative tenuki. Very often leads to a slightly more complex exchange which results in something suspiciously normal anyway
R10, peaceful tenuki which is as gote as can be
C16, a shimari up top, taking territory with some decent follow-up to each side. Much gote.
F4, to push black down and to Q3

There are more possibilities, certainly a LOT more legal moves, but I will consider only a subset.

For the sake of this game, let's pretend these are my options, then:

C16, R10, Q10, Q6, Q5, R6, R5, K3, K4, J3, J4, H3, H4, F4, F5, E3, D6, D7, C6, C7

C16 is too passive. I don't want to do that now.
R10 and Q10 are also too passive.
R6 and Q6 feel too loose.
K3 and K4 feel too loose, too.
I've played the kick at E3 too often lately.
F4 and F5 aren't how I want to play this time, either.
R5 seems a little helpful to black.
C6, C7, D6 and D7 would be too peaceful for my taste.
I don't want J3 and H4 either.
Q5 doesn't really appeal to me this time around.
Last to be voted off the island is H3.

J4 it is then!

Here's all my rejected choices plus the one I did choose, in handy visual format:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c J4 for great victory!
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . M , 4 . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . M M . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . M M . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . M M . . . . . . . . . . . M M . . |
$$ | . . . . . M . . . . . . . . . M M . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . M . M C M . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . M 5 . M M M . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I probably did offend sensible knowledge with the above process, but you have to understand that this is really the best I can do.
I'll try to work on it, but after years of trying, it should be obvious how little effect that has had so far.

In a timed game, I run through these options much faster, since I see no sense in considering carefully what I understand only a little bit.
I'm hopeful someday statistical analysis will kick in and I will remember which choices turned out to be bad.

Re: #247 tentano v. hailthorn

Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 6:43 pm
by moyoaji
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Captures- :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 4 . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . W , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Here you go. You accidentally put a C immediately after the W.

Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 6:53 pm
by EdLee
You accidentally put a C immediately after the W.
Tentano, you also inserted 4 extra blank space characters before each $$.
With diagrams, you have to be very accurate. Double check.
tentano wrote:Diagram doesn't draw for me. I hope that's a temporary difficulty...
If it's something I did wrong while writing it, I don't know what it is.
Compare very carefully your erroneous diagram code with an existing and correct diagram code, character by character, until you spot your error(s).

Re: #247 tentano v. hailthorn

Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 7:18 pm
by ez4u
From the 'extra space' issue, I am guessing that you hit the 'Click here to show diagram code' link below the previous diagram. Then you cut and pasted the code. Oddly enough this does not work. The 'code' shown has all those empty spaces in it. The best way to copy a diagram is to hit the 'quote' button. The diagram code inside the quote is correct with no extra spaces. You can copy it to the clipboard, delete everything, and paste the diagram back into the now blank entry.
:tmbup:

Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 7:44 pm
by EdLee
To add to Dave's notes, if you use the 'Quote' button, be careful you do not quote another person'a post with hidden texts not meant for you to read. Instead, 'quote' your own posts for diagrams.

Re: #247 tentano v. hailthorn

Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:10 pm
by hailthorn011
Interesting. I don't usually have problems with copy and pasting. Sometimes I do.

To observers I guess:
And interesting. I guess I should have seen a move like this coming, but now it forces me to rethink my entire fuseki. It also just so happens that I don't have a lot of experience dealing with a move like this which is funny considering I'm around 5k on KGS. I suppose I'll treat this as a learning experience and think on it a bit.

Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:31 pm
by EdLee
Hi hailthorn,
hailthorn011 wrote:I don't have a lot of experience dealing with a move like this which is funny considering I'm around 5k on KGS.
Why is it funny ? :)

Re:

Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:33 pm
by hailthorn011
EdLee wrote:Hi hailthorn,
hailthorn011 wrote:I don't have a lot of experience dealing with a move like this which is funny considering I'm around 5k on KGS.
Why is it funny ? :)

You'd think I'd have more experience with this sort of pincer by now. I've seen it a lot in other games, but I don't recall seeing it very often in my own games.

Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:41 pm
by EdLee
Hi hailthorn,
hailthorn011 wrote:You'd think I'd have more experience with...
Around these levels, I think we have practically zero experience with pretty much everything, in the big scheme of things. :mrgreen:

But I know what you mean, too. :)

Re: #247 tentano v. hailthorn

Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 11:31 pm
by tentano
Leading whitespace OUGHT to be meaningless.

Anyway, knowing what went wrong means that I could fix it. So thanks for telling me.

Behold the new, legible diagram! (edited in the original post)

I'll just keep a valid copy in a text file so I can just edit that without introducing any evil, sneaky whitespace. It will cost a few hundred bytes of diskspace, but this is a sacrifice I am willing to make.
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