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Software for visualizing influence and territory
Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:47 pm
by Krama
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGDQccLdZWcI have no idea how this was done but it is an amazing way to show what the game of go is about to some who has never heard of it.
Usually when you tell someone about go and the rules of it they ask you what the point is. No matter how hard you try to explain (even if you play with them) they will most likely not understand the point of the game.
This video is a really nice example of what "could" be going on. It is however up to the player to know if something is dead or alive (by reading), but this is at least interesting to some extent to those who don't even know the rules yet.
How hard would it be to program something like this? And I understand it wouldn't be possible to program it to create these influence colors by its own, but a player with knowledge of life and death, and general fighting could manually "color" the board as the moves go on. If this could be simplified it would be a great tool for teaching/learning even for stronger kyu players.
Re: Creating a go software
Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:08 pm
by RBerenguel
Krama wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGDQccLdZWc
I have no idea how this was done but it is an amazing way to show what the game of go is about to some who has never heard of it.
Usually when you tell someone about go and the rules of it they ask you what the point is. No matter how hard you try to explain (even if you play with them) they will most likely not understand the point of the game.
This video is a really nice example of what "could" be going on. It is however up to the player to know if something is dead or alive (by reading), but this is at least interesting to some extent to those who don't even know the rules yet.
How hard would it be to program something like this? And I understand it wouldn't be possible to program it to create these influence colors by its own, but a player with knowledge of life and death, and general fighting could manually "color" the board as the moves go on. If this could be simplified it would be a great tool for teaching/learning even for stronger kyu players.
IIRC this is done using either Pachi's or Fuego's influence functions, or maybe Montecarlo winning probabilities, don't exactly remember. Totally done by computer (well, someone with skill and love programmed it, sure).
Re: Creating a go software
Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:33 pm
by Bonobo
I’ve seen this beautiful video
years ago and am very happy to watch it again; and I think it boosted my understanding of “influence”. Wish I could watch the whole game this way … but since the video only has a few moves, I guess I will have to develop this kind of “X-Ray Vision” for my own play.
And, BTW, this TOTALLY reminds me of …
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=11086 
<edit>Krama:
</edit><edit 2> Unhid the YT video because it might be overlooked otherwise
</edit 2>
Re: Creating a go software
Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 1:56 pm
by fireproof
Very interesting! Thanks for posting that.
Re: Creating a go software
Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:04 am
by Bonobo
Found an (apparently old) Java software for visualising influence:
http://www.zenmachine.co.uk/gowaves/index.htmlNice to see influence visualised, though the colours and the (IMHO too fast) movements make it painful for me to watch.
(Krama, if you’re still here: I think it might be a nice idea to change the thread title to “influence visualised” or “visualising influence” or something … I was close to creating a new thread but then remembered this one …)
Re: Software for visualizing influence and territory
Posted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:51 am
by Krama
I am still here
And I am really interested in the development of such software!
Re: Software for visualizing influence and territory
Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 9:14 am
by agewisdom
The video was beautiful. Really helps a beginner such as myself to visualize the concepts of territory and to focus on how the each new stone influences and reinforces the existing ones.
And how the opponent tries to do the same and the interaction between black and white. Too bad it's not the complete game and there's only 1 video. Sigh...
Re: Software for visualizing influence and territory
Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 9:24 am
by RobertJasiek
It is not "influence" that is being visualised. Nor is it "proximity". The visualisations are misleading.
Re: Software for visualizing influence and territory
Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 9:52 am
by agewisdom
RobertJasiek wrote:It is not "influence" that is being visualised. Nor is it "proximity". The visualisations are misleading.
Perhaps, I wouldn't know better. But at least someone tried to visualize this in easy to understand manner for a beginner. Obviously a software can't do this, but an approximation would be better than nothing, esp. for a beginner.
Re: Software for visualizing influence and territory
Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 9:59 am
by RobertJasiek
False information makes things more difficult (also) for beginners, not easier.
Re: Software for visualizing influence and territory
Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 11:15 am
by Krama
RobertJasiek wrote:It is not "influence" that is being visualised. Nor is it "proximity". The visualisations are misleading.
Since you need to be a blister on every topic fine.
This is visualization of stone power. The more stones in one area gives empty area around those stones some sort of aura ether black or white.
If the stones are alive that is.
Also if this aura is near the edge of the board or in the corners it is mot likely a certain territory. Do we have to define everything precisely so that you don't get all argument thirsty?
Re: Software for visualizing influence and territory
Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 12:24 pm
by RobertJasiek
Krama wrote:empty area around those [live] stones
A beginner might think that live stones behind live opposing stones would hardly affect an empty area, and this can be wrong in many cases.
Re: Software for visualizing influence and territory
Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 12:34 pm
by Krama
RobertJasiek wrote:Krama wrote:empty area around those [live] stones
A beginner might think that live stones behind live opposing stones would hardly affect an empty area, and this can be wrong in many cases.
I don't understand what you are saying.
Also this video maybe isn't suitable for someone who learned the rules of go 5 minutes ago but for someone playing the game for a week.
Re: Software for visualizing influence and territory
Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 12:42 pm
by RobertJasiek
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- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B live stones behind live opposing stones
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$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Re: Software for visualizing influence and territory
Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 1:25 pm
by Krama
RobertJasiek wrote:$$B live stones behind live opposing stones
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B live stones behind live opposing stones
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]
Yes and? The zone on left is black territory since the "influence" or what I called aura of the black stones is projected near the edge of the board. The white stones project the power towards the right what we call thickness but since there is no white stones on the right it can't be called moyo or territory yet however if any fight breaks out on the right this white thickness will be useful.
What is there not to understand? Why are you trying to complicate everything?