[go]$$W Pro-pro 2 stone game, White to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X a O . . . . . g O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . f . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . e . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . h . X . O . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . i . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . b . X O . . O c X . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
a - thick but probably too slow as left group is fine and w has plenty of space on top if black cuts.
b - fairly normal move in this corner, but do we hurt lower group too much?
c - prevent black's 2nd line tesuji to make shape, strengthen us and weaken b
d - (or one to left) aiming to settle here but small, and b very strong. W group is not so weak as out and black lower middle weak too.
e - combine attack and defence, more interesting sort of move.
f - too slow
g - big but rather heavy
h - try to reduce this corner without hurting lower group
i - OMG so crude a pro can't play it can he?
Re: Guess the next move
Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:01 pm
by John Fairbairn
I happen to know the answer - the reason why will probably be obvious once you know the players - but macelee's suggestion caught my eye because just yesterday I happened to see that tesuji in an old game I was entering. At the time, it gave me pause for thought because it's a tesuji I remember very, very well from beginner days, probably from the old Go Monthly, yet I have rarely seen it in real games.
That got me to wondering (a) was my impression right - apparently yes, for Kombilo shows fewer than 400 games with that tesuji - and (b) why.
It's obviously a good move in principle, as many of the very top pros play it, and the shape in which it can occur is far from rare. So I infer that the planets have to be in a certain conjunction to play it, or it may just be a style thing. But if pressed, I'd say that a top pro, and especially White in a no-komi game, is ultra-chary of fixing shapes. Especially if a similar effect can be achieved by the much more subtle means employed here... But what are your thoughts on that tesuji?
Re: Guess the next move
Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 1:04 pm
by oca
Uberdude wrote:
i - OMG so crude a pro can't play it can he?
arg... that was my guess...
Re: Guess the next move
Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 4:24 am
by peti29
oca wrote:
Uberdude wrote:
i - OMG so crude a pro can't play it can he?
arg... that was my guess...
Yes, mine too. (With the same considerations: would a pro play that move??)
However it seems like a good move in this situation.
Re: Guess the next move
Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 2:26 am
by peti29
So? What is the answer?
Re: Guess the next move
Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 2:42 am
by schawipp
I'm just a former chess player with materialistic attitude
$$W Pro-pro 2 stone game, White to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . O . . . . . . O X . a . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . X . X . 2 . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X 1 . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X O Z 3 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , b b . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . b b . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . O . X . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$W Pro-pro 2 stone game, White to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . O . . . . . . O X . a . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . X . X . 2 . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X 1 . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X O Z 3 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , b b . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . b b . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . O . X . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
After that sequence, (i) the white group at the border is settled and (ii) it is probably sente as black might want to protect (a). After that, a white play around (b) looks nice.
Re: Guess the next move
Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 7:00 am
by Uberdude
schawipp wrote: (ii) it is probably sente as black might want to protect (a).
It's not sente. Even though white can just manage to live inside (starting with clamp not (a)) black defending lacks fighting spirit, and if he did want to defend it would be to capture that white stone on the outside as that is a more valuable way to fix the corner aji.
Re: Guess the next move
Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 7:55 am
by Bill Spight
Here is how Honinbo Shuei played against Karigane.
$$Wcm55 Honinbo Shuei (W) vs. Karigane (2 stones)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . O . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . 1 . X . O . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . O . X . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$Wcm55 Honinbo Shuei (W) vs. Karigane (2 stones)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X 5 O . . 4 . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . 7 X . 3 . . . . . . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . a c . . . . . . . . . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . 1 8 X . O . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . 2 . X . O . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . O . X . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
With Black shifted to the top side. Then White switched back to the left side with . Later White connected at "a", Black secured the corner with "b", and White continued with "c".
Re: Guess the next move
Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 7:57 am
by Bill Spight
Here is the whole game.
Re: Guess the next move
Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:01 am
by jeromie
Edit: Bill posted the answer before I got this up, but I'll post it anyway to preserve my kyu level reasoning for all to see.
My considerations:
White seems to be following a moyo strategy.
There are still several points where black has access to the center and could erase much of the white center potential.
White needs to play at least two moves to get a solid center framework. Sente is important.
It's a two stone handicap game with which John is familiar, so it's probably Shuei and the next move likely makes miai if two options.
The black group on the bottom is the only one that seems vulnerable to attack.
None of the white groups are in urgent need of a defensive move. (Though the group's on the right side are a bit thin.)
$$W Pro-pro 2 stone game, White to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . O . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . W . c b . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . O . X . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
[go]$$W Pro-pro 2 stone game, White to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X X X . O . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . W . c b . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . O X X . |
$$ | . . . X . O . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . X O . . O . X . . . O . O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
It's a bit of a weak connection with the lower left group, but I think this leaves follow ups at a (build a huge moyo) or b (attack the bottom black group and potentially build a moyo on the right-center half.) Whit still has enough eye potential in the lower right that I think he can manage that group of black jumps out at c and attacks at the same time.
a probe, but Black's response seems pretty predictable. Anyway, it's a pretty move. 
White's plan seems to be to sacrifice 
Black shifted to the top side. Then White switched back to the left side with 
. Later White connected at "a", Black secured the corner with "b", and White continued with "c".