Life In 19x19

Hello.

9x9 Go here. Black opens on the 3-4 point, possibly one of the strongest first move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +-------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . , . . . , . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . , . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . , . . . , . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +-------------------+[/go]

Two questions:

• With a komi of 7.5, what is White's strongest reply?
• With no komi, what is White's strongest reply?

Thanks in advance for your answers.

Are you a chess player?

Yes! In chess I'm around 1900 Elo, but in Go I'm merely around 10 kyu.
And I'm also a backgammon player.
But what does it have to do with the 3-4 opening?

Because this and your previous questions here are very much those of a Chess-player who wants to learn opening books for Go like one does in Chess. But Go is a different game with much more flexibility in the opening (and 9x9 is not studied as much as 19x19). Humanity does not know the best for for white in this position. Just play some reasonable move (not on the first or second line) and enjoying creating your own unique game that no one else has played before.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$1 3-4 Opening
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . k e . . , . . |
$$ | . . . d . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . g a . j . . . |
$$ | . . b c f . i . . |
$$ | . . , h . . , . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------[/go]

All of these have been played at the professional level (so this would be with komi). That does not mean they are the only options. I play 9x9 regularly, and have definitely played other moves in this position against other dan players and gotten fine results.

Uberdude wrote:Because this and your previous questions here are very much those of a Chess-player who wants to learn opening books for Go like one does in Chess. But Go is a different game with much more flexibility in the opening (and 9x9 is not studied as much as 19x19). Humanity does not know the best for for white in this position. Just play some reasonable move (not on the first or second line) and enjoying creating your own unique game that no one else has played before.

To be fair, if you asked a chess player something like "If white opens 1.e4, what is black's best response?", he'd probably also tell you there is no single best answer, but that there are at least 10 different moves that are all viable responses.

HermanHiddema wrote:

Uberdude wrote:Because this and your previous questions here are very much those of a Chess-player who wants to learn opening books for Go like one does in Chess. But Go is a different game with much more flexibility in the opening (and 9x9 is not studied as much as 19x19). Humanity does not know the best for for white in this position. Just play some reasonable move (not on the first or second line) and enjoying creating your own unique game that no one else has played before.

To be fair, if you asked a chess player something like "If white opens 1.e4, what is black's best response?", he'd probably also tell you there is no single best answer, but that there are at least 10 different moves that are all viable responses.

Yes, but they all have names like Ruy Lopez or King's Gambit with countless books written about them and their numerous well-studied variations. Is there any literature (Western or Asian) on 9x9 openings? Have any reached a level of study to earn a name, like we have Chinese opening or san ren sei on 19x19?

Uberdude wrote:Yes, but they all have names like Ruy Lopez or King's Gambit with countless books written about them and their numerous well-studied variations. Is there any literature (Western or Asian) on 9x9 openings? Have any reached a level of study to earn a name, like we have Chinese opening or san ren sei on 19x19?

Not that I know of. But if 9x9 were the main size at which the game was played, I would expect there to be names for most of them

HermanHiddema wrote:To be fair, if you asked a chess player something like "If white opens 1.e4, what is black's best response?", he'd probably also tell you there is no single best answer, but that there are at least 10 different moves that are all viable responses.

At least 10? Nah. Against 1.e4, there are 2 objectively best moves (1...c5 and 1...e5), 2 other good moves (1...c6 and 1...e6) but which are very probably slightly less strong than the previous two, 4 moves which are objectively bad but which are still playable as surprise weapons (1...d6, 1...d5, 1...g6, 1...Nf6). I don't count "at least 10". And I don't consider 1...b6 or 1...a6 as "viable responses".

But also there's a big difference between Go openings and chess openings.
In chess, after 1.e4, Black has 20 moves, and most probably 18 of them (everyone of them except 1...b5 and 1...f5 which drop a Pawn) are all equally strong because with theoretical best play by both side it's just a draw...
Whereas in 9x9 Go, after Black plays his first move on the 3-4 point, there is very probably one or two moves(s) for White which is/are better than every other moves in the sense that with optimal play from both side it/they would lead to a greater winning margin than every other moves.

HermanHiddema wrote:

$$1 3-4 Opening
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . k e . . , . . |
$$ | . . . d . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . g a . j . . . |
$$ | . . b c f . i . . |
$$ | . . , h . . , . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$1 3-4 Opening
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . k e . . , . . |
$$ | . . . d . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . g a . j . . . |
$$ | . . b c f . i . . |
$$ | . . , h . . , . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------[/go]

All of these have been played at the professional level (so this would be with komi). That does not mean they are the only options. I play 9x9 regularly, and have definitely played other moves in this position against other dan players and gotten fine results.

I have seen this diagram on Sensei's Library.
I am really hesitating between A, B and C.
Does anyone have any idea which one of these 3 moves would be the best without komi?
And what about with a komi of 7.5?
C looks weird to me because Black already has some territory in the top right, and Black can also make a 3-3 point invasion in the bottom left, so to me C seems bad, in particular if there is no komi...
B also looks bad if there is no komi, but it looks good if there is a komi of 7.5, because I heard that playing mirror Go is a bad idea for White if he has no komi but if he has a komi it's a good idea.
So in my opinion it would seem that without any komi the best move is A, while with a komi of 7.5 the best move is B.
But I'm just a beginner so I could be completely wrong.

All 8 of the responses you mentioned are clearly viable moves in response to 1.e4, and in titled master+ play black has the best win record with one not in the top 8 (1... a6 - 10 wins for white, 8 for black, and 4 draws), so really stating that 4 of the 8 are "surprise" weapons but objectively bad is not reasonable at all. Not common sure, but that's not the same thing. I would raise an eyebrow of great scepticism if that claim was made by Magnus or Fabiano, so I'm certainly going to take it with a pinch of salt from a fellow mortal. I'd be more interested if you had 10,000 Komodo vs Komodo games run at classic time controls on each, but without that I see little evidence to support it.

Back to Go, starting with tengen in a 19x19 is unusual, and a bit ballsy, but trying to prove it's objectively bad ...well, good luck with that

Honestly, searching for which of those is objectively best here with komi or without is pretty pointless - if professionals don't agree (which clearly they don't), why do you expect us to produce a definitive answer? From the professional discussions I've seen, recommended komi seems to be 5.5 on a 9x9 board, so I'm guessing White should have a forced win with a few of the points on 7.5 komi, and "resign" is probably the optimal move if both sides are going to be playing perfectly with 0 komi.

If you're talking about two people who can't play perfectly, then my honest advice is try each one out in turn, and see how it goes. Get people to review the games, and point out where things are going wrong - at 10k, getting move 2 right on a 9x9 board is close to insignificant.

HermanHiddema wrote:

Uberdude wrote:Because this and your previous questions here are very much those of a Chess-player who wants to learn opening books for Go like one does in Chess. But Go is a different game with much more flexibility in the opening (and 9x9 is not studied as much as 19x19). Humanity does not know the best for for white in this position. Just play some reasonable move (not on the first or second line) and enjoying creating your own unique game that no one else has played before.

To be fair, if you asked a chess player something like "If white opens 1.e4, what is black's best response?", he'd probably also tell you there is no single best answer, but that there are at least 10 different moves that are all viable responses.

No, a HELPFUL chess player would say something like: "The most common responses are c5 (sicilian defense), e5 (kings pawn opening), and e6 (french defense). Then they would tell you a little about the idea behind each move.


Likewise a HELPFUL Go player would respond "the most common responses are a, b, and c" and then tell you a little bit about what each one of them does.


An unhelpful player of either game will give you the reply that there are tons of possible responses and then give you no useful information at all about what any of them are.


Even a response like "this move here is one possible response, and the idea behind it is X" would be helpful.

I am sure that the OP was not simply looking to memorize responses with no understanding of why those moves were good, but was looking for stronger players to provide him some insight. The response he got was very dismissive.

Alexfrog wrote:

HermanHiddema wrote:

Uberdude wrote:Because this and your previous questions here are very much those of a Chess-player who wants to learn opening books for Go like one does in Chess. But Go is a different game with much more flexibility in the opening (and 9x9 is not studied as much as 19x19). Humanity does not know the best for for white in this position. Just play some reasonable move (not on the first or second line) and enjoying creating your own unique game that no one else has played before.

To be fair, if you asked a chess player something like "If white opens 1.e4, what is black's best response?", he'd probably also tell you there is no single best answer, but that there are at least 10 different moves that are all viable responses.

No, a HELPFUL chess player would say something like: "The most common responses are c5 (sicilian defense), e5 (kings pawn opening), and e6 (french defense). Then they would tell you a little about the idea behind each move.


Likewise a HELPFUL Go player would respond "the most common responses are a, b, and c" and then tell you a little bit about what each one of them does.


An unhelpful player of either game will give you the reply that there are tons of possible responses and then give you no useful information at all about what any of them are.


Even a response like "this move here is one possible response, and the idea behind it is X" would be helpful.

I am sure that the OP was not simply looking to memorize responses with no understanding of why those moves were good, but was looking for stronger players to provide him some insight. The response he got was very dismissive.

I wouldn't say that the responses were dismissive. As Uberdude says, we don't know. Hermann gave responses that have been played, and it is a good guess that one of them is best. But there is no consensus. If 9x9 go had been as extensively studied as chess or 19x19 go has been, we would have more authoritative answers.

I know the strongest , but it would be useless to you as the continuations are too complex.

snorri wrote:I know the strongest , but it would be useless to you as the continuations are too complex.

This note is not long enough to contain the variations?