Life In 19x19

Tonkleton wrote:Hey, it's Saint Ravitt. I see your games on OGS all the time.

Now, I'm sure there will come along a much stronger player who will be able to give more specific guidance. As far as advice is concerned, I agree with what Uberdude is saying, but I'm going to try to word what he's saying differently.

I don't think it really help folks at our level (DDK) to know whether a particular strategic approach was a good one. What I mean is that a high-level player might look at the position and see a move from the opponent that could really punish it. While they could tell you "yes, great move!" or "no, that doesn't quite work out," you can't really utilize that in your future games. The chances are you won't see this exact position for a while. Even if you did come across one that is close to the same, a one-stone difference in the position could make the move optimal or suboptimal.

Better than that, I would suggest focusing on local improvements around where your shape got you into trouble. Anywhere you suffered locally or lost stones without a gain is a great opportunity to see what can be done better and to try out variations. Also, the folks around here love getting into those details, and in fact there's a forum dedicated to just that purpose.

All that said, I thought the pincer looked fine, using the criteria that I wouldn't mind being in black's position at that point in time.

Joelnelsonb wrote:Thanks for the word! I give people Chess counseling all the time and when a beginning player asks me "what do you think of this move?", obviously I look at the entire position and think "wow, I'm not sure where to begin with this one :/" None the less, that doesn't stop me from being able to at least assess the students strategic idea and tell them whether they're even on the right track (regardless of the fact that they're level of play is far inferior to my own). If you can't meet a student where they are then you have no business giving instruction to anyone. Regardless of your own expertise, you're simply worthless as any sort of mentor (no, I'm not suggesting that "Uberdude" did any such thing to me; just a tip from the not so wise).
Another example of this: I'm a Spanish tutor. When a student asks me "did I pronounce this word correctly?" The fact that the entire sentence they've just attempted to say made no coherent sense doesn't stop me from answering their question.

Kirby wrote:While I can understand the idea that Joelnelsonb's biggest mistake might not have been a pincer, I can see his point in that it can still be good, as a teacher, to answer the question.

Recently I feel passionate about the idea that, a student can learn when he or she is motivated. When they are excited about what they are studying, other things will follow.

Perhaps choosing a better pincer won't win Joelnelsonb his or her next game. But since the question was asked, Joelnelsonb is clearly interested in choosing good pincers. Let's not extinguish that interest. If he asks, "What can I do to improve?", well, that's a different question.

Boidhre wrote:

Kirby wrote:While I can understand the idea that Joelnelsonb's biggest mistake might not have been a pincer, I can see his point in that it can still be good, as a teacher, to answer the question.

Recently I feel passionate about the idea that, a student can learn when he or she is motivated. When they are excited about what they are studying, other things will follow.

Perhaps choosing a better pincer won't win Joelnelsonb his or her next game. But since the question was asked, Joelnelsonb is clearly interested in choosing good pincers. Let's not extinguish that interest. If he asks, "What can I do to improve?", well, that's a different question.

His question was about whether this was a good exchange for him and he focused in on the pincer selection. What everyone is trying to tell him is the exchange was dictated more by his local play errors in the corner than his choice of pincer.

Edit: I quite strongly feel that it is part of a teachers job to help their student ask the right questions. Teaching is a dialogue, the idea that you know what questions to ask about something you know very little about should be immediately nonsensical to anyone. The key is the teacher doesn't innately know which questions the student needs to ask but needs to discover them through a back and forth with the student. If either party refuses to budge then no one learns anything.

Akura wrote:

Boidhre wrote:

Kirby wrote:While I can understand the idea that Joelnelsonb's biggest mistake might not have been a pincer, I can see his point in that it can still be good, as a teacher, to answer the question.

Recently I feel passionate about the idea that, a student can learn when he or she is motivated. When they are excited about what they are studying, other things will follow.

Perhaps choosing a better pincer won't win Joelnelsonb his or her next game. But since the question was asked, Joelnelsonb is clearly interested in choosing good pincers. Let's not extinguish that interest. If he asks, "What can I do to improve?", well, that's a different question.

His question was about whether this was a good exchange for him and he focused in on the pincer selection. What everyone is trying to tell him is the exchange was dictated more by his local play errors in the corner than his choice of pincer.

Edit: I quite strongly feel that it is part of a teachers job to help their student ask the right questions. Teaching is a dialogue, the idea that you know what questions to ask about something you know very little about should be immediately nonsensical to anyone. The key is the teacher doesn't innately know which questions the student needs to ask but needs to discover them through a back and forth with the student. If either party refuses to budge then no one learns anything.

And, as always in such situations, both opinions are valid. Both of you are correct. A teachers job in such a situation is finding the threshold between
(1) "Pincering is utterly wrong. You should play bla bla" and
(2) "Locally, pincer A is better than pincer B. But in this global situation you can play bla bla instead of the pincer, too."

Maybe we can do both in most situations/questions. Maybe one pincer is better than the other but pincering in itself is wrong or not optimal. In most amateur games this should be true. Why not explain both points, if possible/reasonable?

Boidhre wrote:I'd argue it's not the right question but the wrong question points in an interesting direction, one thing that is raised here is that the OP didn't see the mistakes in the corner as if they realised they got a raw deal in the corner after the pincer the question wouldn't be about the pincer being right or wrong but what should have happened after that pincer instead of the game result. So maybe the question isn't "which pincer?" but "what should I expect after a pincer?" and maybe joel might realise something broader about go by considering the importance of asking those questions in the right order.

Boidhre wrote:

Kirby wrote:While I can understand the idea that Joelnelsonb's biggest mistake might not have been a pincer, I can see his point in that it can still be good, as a teacher, to answer the question.

Recently I feel passionate about the idea that, a student can learn when he or she is motivated. When they are excited about what they are studying, other things will follow.

Perhaps choosing a better pincer won't win Joelnelsonb his or her next game. But since the question was asked, Joelnelsonb is clearly interested in choosing good pincers. Let's not extinguish that interest. If he asks, "What can I do to improve?", well, that's a different question.

His question was about whether this was a good exchange for him and he focused in on the pincer selection. What everyone is trying to tell him is the exchange was dictated more by his local play errors in the corner than his choice of pincer.

Edit: I quite strongly feel that it is part of a teachers job to help their student ask the right questions. Teaching is a dialogue, the idea that you know what questions to ask about something you know very little about should be immediately nonsensical to anyone. The key is the teacher doesn't innately know which questions the student needs to ask but needs to discover them through a back and forth with the student. If either party refuses to budge then no one learns anything.

Kirby wrote:The OP did NOT ask for general advise on how to improve, and I fail to see why it should be forced upon him.