Life In 19x19

Hello guys,
I got a question about this double hane joseki after 3-3 invasion, which happened twice in my games recently

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c double hane
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b 2 1 6 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 X O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . B . . . . . X O 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I know this sequence is locally joseki but here, because of the marked black stone; i do not feel that my ponnuki is useful. i feel i need to add a move for security , like a b or c, but b or c would help B build the bottom. after a i should be able to live, but i feel Black got the better deal

So was the invasion worng in that context ? To me invading this kind of high double wing formation is almost automatic , is this a bad habit ? What would be the alternatives ? after a standard approach i feel the kick is unpleasant too

Is there some other line for W in this invasion? i do not know any

Or am i underestimating my second line ponnuki ?
Is there something better than a b c?

If it depends a lot on the top right corner, lets assume it was like that

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c top right is W corner
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . W . W . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 6 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 X O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . B . . . . . X O 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

i would appreciate any comments
thanks in advance for your go brain juice

If you don't like this result as white, you could consider this one:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c double hane
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . B . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Kirby wrote:If you don't like this result as white, you could consider this one:

$$c double hane
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . B . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c double hane
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . B . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 X O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

didnt know that line; no idea what to make of it. Seems to me that both player overplayed
Thanks for the idea i will sleep on it
Edit o i see after R2 has Q5 ... i still don t know how this might go, but i understand i think now, interesting

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc top right is W corner
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 4 2 1 O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

How do you feel about this result?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . 1 . |
$$. . . . . a X O . |
$$. . . . . X O . . |
$$. . . . 4 X O . . |
$$. . . . 3 2 . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$------------------[/go]

perceval wrote:i understand i think now

Hi perceval,

The first thing to learn about is W threatens the huge double atari (a). So locally, B has to deal with this.
( Of course, globally, if there are even bigger fires, then could be gote. This goes without saying. )

One continuation -- if B connects with :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . 1 . |
$$. . . . . 5 X O . |
$$. . . . . X O . . |
$$. . . . 4 X O . . |
$$. . . 6 B 2 7 9 . |
$$. . . . 8 . . . . |
$$------------------[/go]

This way, B still keeps the corner,
and W gets the ponnuki on the bottom instead of the right side.

But this is not B's only option; there are other variations.

It isn't very good if the board is as open in your example, but if you really want to take the corner, you can just play a little submissively. This can be useful if B has more support on both sides, and you just need to take the corner away later in the game.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . 3 1 . |
$$. . . . . . X O . |
$$. . . . . X O 2 . |
$$. . . . . X O . . |
$$. . . . 5 4 6 . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$------------------[/go]

The variation that Kirby shared can become similar to this shape too. But in this sequence it is gote.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$. . . . . . . 1 . |
$$. . . . . 5 X O . |
$$. . . . . X O 8 . |
$$. . . . 4 X O . . |
$$. . . 7 3 2 6 . . |
$$. . . . . . . . . |
$$------------------[/go]

Uberdude wrote:

$$Wc top right is W corner
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 4 2 1 O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc top right is W corner
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 . . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 4 2 1 O . O |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . X . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

How do you feel about this result?

i feel i did not think of .i read to , then to me was pushing from behind while letting B make 6th line territory so it didnt look great. It is difficult to envision the weakish ponuki at start becoming strong enough to launch an attack at the end.

To answer more directly, i can see your line is appealing, even though the result of the attack after R12 is hard to predict at my level. it is beyond me to judge if this attack should be bigger than B territory at the bottom assuming perfect play, its also hard to evaluate taking into account the terrible play that will probably follow.

@EdLee thanks for the details, indeed what i missed at first was the threat of a

@DJLLAP: i thought of this variation but indeed I felt it was horribly submissive by comparison to the more common invasion line (here W is sealed on both sides)

Something to bear in mind with that sixth line pushing is that while black does get a lot of territory, he already had a lot of territory (or nearly territory, and to stop it being so would create a weak group), so the extra territory you give from pushing is actually quite small.