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Where does black play next?

https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?t=11807

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Where does black play next?

Posted: Sat May 09, 2015 11:58 am
by Joelnelsonb
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Black to checkmate in three (oh sorry, wrong game).
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . OOO . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . OX. . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . O . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is a game I'm playing against a bot so don't worry about helping me cheat. I have multiple concerns in the position: White splitting at C13 seems to be highly threatening to my top left group. Likewise, I have a weakness at C15. What's also concerning is the cut at F4 if I allow white to capture the the stones at D5. I would love to kill the D13 group starting with a move like E15 but I'm afraid that my position is too weak for this. What do you think? Perhaps a separate move altogether?

Re: Where does black play next?

Posted: Sat May 09, 2015 12:25 pm
by Bki
You have so many weakness to defend that it's hard to decide. The cut at C13 can be severe, true, but white E6 would be so painful you very much want to capture that sooner rather than later... So can we find a way to protect against both?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c :w8: connect
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 4 X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 3 2 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 1 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . O . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
That should do the trick. If :w6: at :b7:, then :b7: at :w6: and you win the race.

Though, if he doesn't cooperate and directly cut? Hum... You should give way, and then attack his two stones.

Edit: Also, you really want to come back to the bottom right.

Re: Where does black play next?

Posted: Sat May 09, 2015 12:31 pm
by skydyr
Why don't you finish the game and then post it for review? I'm sure there are things to talk about before this point, and you'll also have some idea of why your choice went right or wrong afterwards.

Re: Where does black play next?

Posted: Sat May 09, 2015 12:33 pm
by Bill Spight
Joelnelsonb wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Black to checkmate in three (oh sorry, wrong game).
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . O . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is a game I'm playing against a bot so don't worry about helping me cheat. I have multiple concerns in the position: White splitting at C13 seems to be highly threatening to my top left group. Likewise, I have a weakness at C15. What's also concerning is the cut at F4 if I allow white to capture the the stones at D5. I would love to kill the D13 group starting with a move like E15 but I'm afraid that my position is too weak for this. What do you think? Perhaps a separate move altogether?
Given your concerns, what are the three best candidate moves for Black that you see?

Re: Where does black play next?

Posted: Sat May 09, 2015 12:57 pm
by Joelnelsonb
Bill Spight wrote:
Joelnelsonb wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Black to checkmate in three (oh sorry, wrong game).
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . O . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is a game I'm playing against a bot so don't worry about helping me cheat. I have multiple concerns in the position: White splitting at C13 seems to be highly threatening to my top left group. Likewise, I have a weakness at C15. What's also concerning is the cut at F4 if I allow white to capture the the stones at D5. I would love to kill the D13 group starting with a move like E15 but I'm afraid that my position is too weak for this. What do you think? Perhaps a separate move altogether?
Given your concerns, what are the three best candidate moves for Black that you see?
I'm torn between C13 and E6 which is why I posted the question. I would just post the whole game for review but I thought this made for an interesting puzzle and wanted to use it to learn something. C11 is also on my mind. I would consider C13 and E6 to be a form of miai as I'm almost certain my opponent will respond accordingly. Bki: Is that the way real Go players think? Goodness...

Edit: What do you think of giving up the top left and moving towards development in the top right?

Re: Where does black play next?

Posted: Sat May 09, 2015 1:10 pm
by Bill Spight
OK. C-13, E-06, and C-11. How would you rank them, and why?

Re: Where does black play next?

Posted: Sat May 09, 2015 1:15 pm
by Joelnelsonb
Bill Spight wrote:OK. C-13, E-06, and C-11. How would you rank them, and why?
From my perspective, I'm going to lose the top left or the bottom left. The bottom left corner looks like a better exchange for white and therefore I'm leaning towards E-06. Between C-11 and C-13? I like C-11 rather than the direct block

Re: Where does black play next?

Posted: Sat May 09, 2015 1:20 pm
by Bill Spight
Joelnelsonb wrote:Edit: What do you think of giving up the top left and moving towards development in the top right?
You mean like this?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Develop top right?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . O . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
What do you think?

Re: Where does black play next?

Posted: Sat May 09, 2015 1:23 pm
by Joelnelsonb
Bill Spight wrote:
Joelnelsonb wrote:Edit: What do you think of giving up the top left and moving towards development in the top right?
You mean like this?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Develop top right?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . O . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
What do you think?

Well, I would take at E-06 first, then do something like K-13 after my opponent splits my top left. If white plays somewhere else, I'd probably defend the top left as well.

Re: Where does black play next?

Posted: Sat May 09, 2015 1:38 pm
by Bill Spight
Joelnelsonb wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:OK. C-13, E-06, and C-11. How would you rank them, and why?
From my perspective, I'm going to lose the top left or the bottom left. The bottom left corner looks like a better exchange for white and therefore I'm leaning towards E-06. Between C-11 and C-13? I like C-11 rather than the direct block
OK, so your two top candidates are C-11 and E-06. I have a heuristic that may help you to compare the two. Treat them as miai, so that if you get one, they get the other.

In this case that produces these comparisons.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Protect the bottom left?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . O . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Vs.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Protect the left side?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O X 2 . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . , . . . . . X O . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . O . . O . X O O . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I think that E-05 is better for White in the bottom left, so I had White make that play. :)

Does this help?

Re: Where does black play next?

Posted: Sat May 09, 2015 2:06 pm
by Joelnelsonb
It does. Many thanks Bill! I appreciate Bki and skydyr's responses as well.

Re: Where does black play next?

Posted: Sun May 17, 2015 1:59 pm
by Uberdude
If there are two places you need to play then something has gone wrong earlier.

Re: Where does black play next?

Posted: Thu May 21, 2015 7:00 am
by Joelnelsonb
Uberdude wrote:If there are two places you need to play then something has gone wrong earlier.

Would this be an indication that one is playing too thin?

Re: Where does black play next?

Posted: Thu May 21, 2015 7:15 am
by Uberdude
I wouldn't say thin, as that is a rather higher-level concept. More that you are missing vital points of local shapes.

Re: Where does black play next?

Posted: Thu May 21, 2015 7:35 am
by Joelnelsonb
So this whole idea of "shape" and making "proper shape": Is it the kinda thing, like learning to make life, that I'm supposed to learn, understand, get it under my belt and move on or is it more like attack and defense where I'll spend the rest of my life working on it?
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