Life In 19x19

In a recent thread, there have been different opinions on the perhaps oversimplified statement "lose 100 games as quickly as possible".

In our table tennis club, it is suggested to keep younger players away from the trickery in adult competitions, because they will get accustomed to losing against players with bad technique and their motivation to keep proper form will be affected. They should acquire as much self confidence as possible by winning with proper form, which is more likely in youth competition, where the opposition is usually well trained too and has no influx of mentally strong but technically poor adults. Only when this confidence is well established and the technique is harnassed into muscle memory, and they're objectively better than the tricky adults they will encounter, it is advisable to unleash the fragile youth into such competition.

The analogy with go is probably not there. But I'm often reminded of this when I see players complain about losing despite training. I have developed an antidote to that, which is training the things that matter most in the kind of matches one is playing in the beginning.

I believe one should play with the objective of winning and train what matters most. Losses can then reveal failure in vital aspects. I don't quite believe in the aggregation of knowledge from 100 losses in games for the sake of having gone through that stage.

I think that proverb arose when new players were likely playing face to face, high handicap games against strong players. In that context, expecting to lose a lot while learning the game makes sense. Unless you are getting teaching games with reviews from stronger players, it makes a lot more sense to play opponents with a handicap that lets you win at least some of the time. If you're losing every game without a review, it's likely that the level of play is too far above you to properly learn.

The proverb still has some value by reminding new players that go is hard and losing is a normal part of the learning process, but it is so easily misinterpreted that I wish it would stop being passed down as remarkable go wisdom.

I don't know where the lose 100 games saying came from, but let me guess. In the West a lot of players learned to play without receiving a proper handicap, so they lost an awful lot of their first games, but they persevered and got past that obstacle. Then they advised new players to follow in their footsteps and not worry about losing at first.

There are a couple of things right about the saying. One is not to worry about losing. Another is that you learn, even when you lose.

However, there are a couple of things wrong about it, as well. One is that losing all the time can be discouraging, to say the least. Another is that in general the best tasks for learning are those where you succeed about half the time. Proper handicaps provide such tasks.

lose play 100 games. Easy.

Bill Spight wrote:I don't know where the lose 100 games saying came from, but let me guess. In the West a lot of players learned to play without receiving a proper handicap, so they lost an awful lot of their first games, but they persevered and got past that obstacle. Then they advised new players to follow in their footsteps and not worry about losing at first.

I, too, am not aware of the origin of this phrase. However, a similar phrase can be seen if you peruse the interwebz for Go Proverbs written in Korean (though, who knows? Maybe they just translated the phrase from English).

interwebz wrote:50판은 져야 바둑 배운다

Admittedly, here, it's about losing 50 games instead of 100. If you win your next 50, I suppose you're succeeding about half of the time

That being said, I agree with Bill that handicap games should be encouraged. Though, when I was a beginner, I wouldn't be surprised if I were to lose my first 50 or 100 handicap games, too :-S

jeromie wrote:I think that proverb arose when new players were likely playing face to face, high handicap games against strong players. In that context, expecting to lose a lot while learning the game makes sense.

When I was a beginner and joined my small local club the next weakest person was 7k EGF and most of my games were against 5 kyus and 2kyus. It took a good while before my handicaps offline felt proper. I didn't mind, it was usually more interesting to lose to a 2k in the club than to win against another 18k on KGS.

Kirby wrote:I, too, am not aware of the origin of this phrase. However, a similar phrase can be seen if you peruse the interwebz for Go Proverbs written in Korean (though, who knows? Maybe they just translated the phrase from English).

interwebz wrote:50판은 져야 바둑 배운다

Admittedly, here, it's about losing 50 games instead of 100. If you win your next 50, I suppose you're succeeding about half of the time

I wonder if that Korean proverb has anything to do with Nam Chihyung. She is generous about rendering go material in English into Korean.

Kirby wrote:That being said, I agree with Bill that handicap games should be encouraged. Though, when I was a beginner, I wouldn't be surprised if I were to lose my first 50 or 100 handicap games, too :-S

I once gave a 40 stone handicap. I won by 10 pts., but that's close enough, eh?

Boidhre wrote:When I was a beginner and joined my small local club the next weakest person was 7k EGF and most of my games were against 5 kyus and 2kyus. It took a good while before my handicaps offline felt proper. I didn't mind, it was usually more interesting to lose to a 2k in the club than to win against another 18k on KGS.

A lot of players do not like to give more than 9 stones handicap. They might try the beer handicap system. Instead of giving stones above 9, White downs a beer for every handicap stone that he does not give.

I remember the first time I heard it a number of years ago, it was 50 games. But later, I couldn't find any original source.

I suspect it arose out of the difficulty for beginners to even understand how to play, until they've played. So I agree with the sentiment to change "lose" to "play".

I don't have such a problem with the word "lose" in the proverb. It puts you in a reasonable frame of mind when starting out. You don't know squat, and you don't have a chance against anyone who does. The best way of acquiring some knowledge and skills is to jump in and play. Any expectation of winning is these early games is illusory, and it is best to play with the aim of finding out what is wrong with any pre-conceptions you may have. Probably the numbers 50 or 100 are too high, and the first wins will occur before then, giving the new player the sense that perhaps it's possible to develop a knack for go after all.

Play 100 enjoyable games!

That way no one will object.

Bill Spight wrote:

Kirby wrote:I, too, am not aware of the origin of this phrase. However, a similar phrase can be seen if you peruse the interwebz for Go Proverbs written in Korean (though, who knows? Maybe they just translated the phrase from English).

interwebz wrote:50판은 져야 바둑 배운다

Admittedly, here, it's about losing 50 games instead of 100. If you win your next 50, I suppose you're succeeding about half of the time

I wonder if that Korean proverb has anything to do with Nam Chihyung. She is generous about rendering go material in English into Korean.

Could very well be. A lot of the pages I found that had this also had an English translation, so it's probably less likely to be "native" to Asia than other proverbs might be.

Bill Spight wrote:

Boidhre wrote:When I was a beginner and joined my small local club the next weakest person was 7k EGF and most of my games were against 5 kyus and 2kyus. It took a good while before my handicaps offline felt proper. I didn't mind, it was usually more interesting to lose to a 2k in the club than to win against another 18k on KGS.

A lot of players do not like to give more than 9 stones handicap. They might try the beer handicap system. Instead of giving stones above 9, White downs a beer for every handicap stone that he does not give.

Just because we hold our club in a pub...