Life In 19x19

I started out in my early teens playing online and learned fundamental concepts such as the need of two eyes for a living group and maybe ko through those games. I then got some books that is suppose to cover concepts from beginner's level to amateur shodan, and IIRC I read about half of them. A shodan player said I was maybe about 9 kyu back then.

After several years of not playing go like when I was in my early 20s or so, I read books like Fundamental Principles of Go and Elementary Go Series's Attack and Defense and Tesuji as well as two 'volumes' of Single Digit Kyu Game Commentaries; before I knew better, I also memorized a couple of joseki from the two volumes of The 21st Century Dictionary of Basic Joseki which were an impulse buy now I think of it. A higher amateur dan player said I was about mid SDK then even though I was more like around 7 kyu on KGS IIRC.

After another few years of not playing go and forgetting most of the books I read previously, I read more books like Mastering the Basics's The Basics of Go Strategy, Making Good Shape and Attacking and Defending Moyos without yet completing all of the problems; I also started going through a few of Shusaku's games in Invincible and have reread Tesuji a bit. Now, I am about 7-9 kyu on KGS after recreating my account.

Each of these periods were about a couple to several months.

Seems like the law of diminishing returns in improvement is applicable to me especially since I reached SDK.

How has your rank achievement journey been?

I just posted my rank progression here. The information isn't complete, of course, since I didn't account for books I read, tsumego, and other irregularities in my training. But it shows something very similar to what you are saying: I progressed very quickly (by number of games played) from a beginner up to SDK and slowed waaay down after that. I'm still making steady progress, but it's beginning to require a more concentrated effort to improve.

It has taken be about 20 to reach my current rank, which is about 2 stones weaker than I was 20 years ago. It took me about 20 years before that to reach AGA 5.96D. The journey was not smooth as I had a couple of long hiatuses. But if you exclude those it was close to linear until I reach the mid-dan level and then slowed off a lot until I reached 5d. Don't forget, though, that I was 5d long before the advent of online playing.

KGS 1 dan took me 5 years, 1 month and 14 days. During that time I played 1144 games that were medium length (20-30 minutes). I also read many go books and practiced problem solving. Observing high level games also helped me to see the concepts I had learned being put into practice.

15 years, and I'm stuck at KGS 6k. I was born in 1972, so you can do the math.

Fedya wrote:15 years, and I'm stuck at KGS 6k. I was born in 1972, so you can do the math.

And judging by your picture it has really aged you.

I've been stuck on the same level for seven and a half years.

I was kinda obsessed with Go when I started and was EGF 6-kyu after a year and 4-kyu after two. I also hit Shodan on KGS after two years but was never able to hold the rank. Mainly I grinded problems like a mad man - online and with books. Until 4-kyu I also played multiple times a week against a then stronger friend.

I read a couple of theory books but mostly I considered them a waste of time. I learned more by solving problems and playing against (stronger) friends.

My passion dwindled down after reaching 4-kyu. Months could go by without me even playing one game or studying a book. Then came times where I went back to grinding a couple of hundred problems a week and replaying a lot of pro games. One reason was that I surpassed my friend and by 4-kyu I was already giving him stones. There were other strong players in my club but I never managed to start a similar kind of rivalry.

I was never much of an online player. Which was another reason for slow and shaky progress, I guess. I think I may just have low four digit number of games played in my seven years of knowing this game.

I'm officially EGF 2-kyu since 2013. My last tournament was 2015 and I even could bump up my GoR a little bit. Didn't study Go at all since then. I rarely play Go in my club any more since I find chess to be far more enjoying right now - luckily: same club. I do play when there are not enough players and got to a nice score against a KGS 1-dan. So some juice seems to be left, which is nice.

Since my Go club is organising a tournament this summer I will also play there. Right now my motivation is very low and I loathe the moment when I have to sit, wait and play with one hour each when I would prefer to blitz 15 minutes and move on.

Maybe I take a chess book with me :p

It takes 20k hours to become a pro

Krama wrote:It takes 20k hours to become a pro

Did you mean "It takes a 20k hours to become a pro"? Because 20,000 hours is only about 27 months.

DrStraw wrote:

Krama wrote:It takes 20k hours to become a pro

Did you mean "It takes a 20k hours to become a pro"? Because 20,000 hours is only about 27 months.

It's also 9.5 years of studying 40 hours per week, which probably isn't too far off from how some pros made it.

DrStraw wrote:

Krama wrote:It takes 20k hours to become a pro

Did you mean "It takes a 20k hours to become a pro"? Because 20,000 hours is only about 27 months.

Hours of studying.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXc9gFZHo5g

In my case, do you mean "How did I rise to my current rank" or "how did I sink to my current rank"?



I feel a go song coming on: "I've looked at ranks from both sides now..." Sorry, Joni Mitchell.

It took me 1-2 weeks to get to 10 kyu and one year to 3k kyu.

My progression is unkown. I have not tracked it, and can only do an estimate.

I started playing Go on May 7, 2012, so a bit more than four years ago. That is the day on which I ordered my current cheap set. At the time, I was looking for something beside Chess, as I was getting bored of that.

I tried to approach Go the same as I approached Chess, which I started playing on my own when I was 10 years old, by replaying games. First, I didn't like the Kifu notation, and second, I understood fracking nothing. While I did understand the rules, it was impossible to understand WHY I should play THERE, and not HERE.

Then I switched to Arimaa, Shogi, and Xiangqi. I understood those easily, but I found the rules to be convoluted.

While I didn't understand Go (yet), I liked the minimalism of the rules. The only exceptions to "you can do whatever you want" are basically suicide and ko, which is very logical; the first would be the same as just giving your opponent a stone and not playing yourself, and no ko rule would create an infinite game.

So I kept switching between Go, Arimaa, Shogi and Xiangqi. That way, a year passed without me being able to decide what game to focus on. I played on the computer, using software, and I had stashed my boards and pieces/stones in the closet.

Then, a friend of mine who was into anime, told me about a series he had seen a few episodes of: "It's about Chess and Go, a guy who wants to become a grandmaster or something. I don't play chess, but maybe you'll like it." He's forever trying to get me to watch anime... and forever failing, as anime is not my cup of tea. Except, Hikaru no Go.

I watched a few episodes that were fan dubbed, and liked the premise of the series. I liked the soundtrack, and the characters. I liked the (sometimes over the top) emotions put into it. I watched the entire thing, and in the mean time, switched back to Go again.

In the beginning, I felt too good to play on smaller boards and take handicaps. I assumed that was for children only. (Take a handicap? ME?! After playing Chess for 20 years, TAKE A HANDICAP?!) However, in Hikaru no Go, I saw grown people take handicaps. I tried against GNU Go on 9x9 using four stones, but still lost. Thus, I tried Go (from AI Factory), began on 9x9 on the lowest level, taking four stones, and at some point, won a game. Then another.

From there, my rank it skyrocketed. 4 stones at 9x9. Then 3. Then 2, 1, only komi, and then even. Then I moved up to level 2, start with 4 stones again... until I could beat Aya at least 50% of the time at level 10, on 9x9. I moved up to 13x13, and then 19x19 in the same way. After I became stronger than Aya level 10 + giving four stones, I moved up to Aya on the computer (which is stronger than the tablet version), GoDroid/GNU Go, and later, after I accidentally found it, the webbot Cosumi.

After one year, I was playing against those engines on their highest level, mostly taking 2-4 stones handicap, which would put me at 7-10 kyu. I still hadn't read a single book or put in even an hour of study. Everything I knew what worked and what didn't, and why, I found out myself. (Maybe I could have gone a lot faster if I *had* bought some books...)

I played off-and on for almost two years, with many a hiatus of several weeks. I also sometimes looked at Dwyrin's and other games on Youtube. However, I didn't really study, and didn't improve. I was stuck at 2-4 handicap stones against all the engines; they're all non-Monte Carlo, and all 5-6k. That would make me a stuck 8 kyu or so.

Until about a month ago.

I lost an even game against Cosumi that I should have easily won. I was ahead, but It forced its way into my territory and ate it. AGAIN.

I wondered why I wasn't able to break that 2-4 stone handicap barrier. and got angry. VERY angry. I decided to get to it, and rip the thing apart as soon as possible, and do it in an even game too. GNU Go and Aya (on the computer) where also put onto my list of destruction.

So, I started watching Nick Sibicky's lectures; Dwyrin's lectures, and all other lectures of the stronger players on Youtube that I could find. I got out my board, and started playing the way I did before I got the DGT electronic chess board: playing out the games against engines on the real board, to avoid impulse moves. I also registered here, and asked for the reviews of a few 'typical' games.

Within the last month, I have jumped at least 4 stones in strength, as my win percentage against all the mentioned engines is now higher than 50% when playing even games. My scores when giving one or two stones handicap are still erratic, so while I'm touching the 2-3k level, I'm not yet stable there. Using the KGS 5-6k strength of the engines I've been playing, and my win/loss-ratings against them (without trying to abuse them), I estimate my current strength at KGS 4k.

So there you have my life in Go up to this point:

One year of playing Go, Chess, Shogi, Xiangqi and Arimaa off and on, wandering from one to the other.
Then, from complete beginner to (estimated) 8k in one year of semi-serious playing, but no studying.
Then 2 years stuck at around 8k as a casual player with long periods of not playing.
Then a jump to +/- 4k (estimated) in a month of serious playing and some studying by watching lectures.

It seems 8k is the first really big step; a step so big that you can't overcome it without studying, pointers by stronger players, and some serious playing. This thread seems to confirm that: There, Jeromie only needed 87 games to achieve an 8k rank, but he needed an additional 182 to become a 7k. That is twice the effort for *one* stone as it took to move from 25k up to 8k, which is 17 stones.

The next step to 6k was relatively easy, but then it took him another 203 games to get to 5k. Thus, moving from 8k up to 5k took him 441 games. Those 3 stones took 5 TIMES THE EFFORT it took to rise from 25k to 8k.

So, the push up to 8k is relatively easy. You can do that on your own by just playing a lot. It can easily be done within a year; at least by me. The move from 8k to 5k/4k is quite hard already. For that move, some study, pointers, and guidance is necessary.

I expect that the move from 4k to 1d will require some serious studying and playing of slow games. Maybe, as I said in an earlier thread, I should finally consider registering on KGS/IGS, to see where I fall within the rankings... but I *HATE* competition. I play Go to become stronger; but not to prove that I'm stronger than others.