Life In 19x19

I know that 3D-printers can handle calcium carbonate, which is the substance that make up most clamshells. It's also possible to 3D-print calcium phosphate, essentially teeth enamel.

I wonder if anyone has tried to 3D-print a clamshell Go stone? I'd imagine it'd be fairly easy to mimic the lines of a natural clam shell stone. With some surface polishing, the end product should look pretty nice.

This ought to be an interesting Kickstarter project. Anyone interested?

Awesome idea, I’d definitely support that with a few €€.


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But what about the black stones?

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Bonobo wrote:Awesome idea, I’d definitely support that with a few €€.


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But what about the black stones?

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Those could easily be made the regular way. It is only clam which is in short supply.

DrStraw wrote:

Bonobo wrote:[..]


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But what about the black stones?

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Those could easily be made the regular way. It is only clam which is in short supply.

Well, what you say is true now, but it won’t be some time in the future, so … I’d think that producing them the same way seems better to me than making more holes into the planet …

(Of course the whole ecological footprint of producing them should be taken into account.)

Double-convex would not print easily. If you do not add supports then you will have a high failure rate due to the small contact patch with the work-table. If you do add supports you will need to laboriously remove them from the finished workpiece.

Single-convex (think Yunzi style) would print very easily. But if you did not infill 100% you would get oddly light stones (they'd feel cheap) and if you infill 100% it would take a very long time to print.

I think you're better off just going with the real deal, unless you're posting from the ISS or some other such remote location with a 3D printer but no postal service!

Maybe I am missing something here, but WHY would you want to involve 3D printing? That's something that we tend to associate with producing shapes that are difficult to easily/cheaply obtain starting with a mass of the material and removing what is not to be part of the finished object. But in the case of go stones, the shape is simple.

In other words, all you need to be able to do is to be able to make slabs of the desired mineral.

But please note that this is NOT necessarily so simple and just stating the "almost only" chemical composition deceptively unhelpful. Molluscs, for example, are able to form their shells in such a way that the resulting material has much more strength (especially tensile strength) than if you simply form a block of the chemicals from solution. Not just molluscs, of course. Our concrete may just be sand and pebbles bound together, but somehow isn't up to the strength of sandstone with embedded pebbles.

In other words, I am far less sure than you that current state of the art would allow us to produce a material closely resembling the clam shells in appearance and strength. Probably nobody will be working to tackle that problem until after they have solved how to set concrete as strong as the stone it is "almost like in the chemical sense".

Now as for the black stones, I wouldn't worry about us running out of suitable parent material any time soon.

Mike Novack wrote:Maybe I am missing something here, but WHY would you want to involve 3D printing? That's something that we tend to associate with producing shapes that are difficult to easily/cheaply obtain starting with a mass of the material and removing what is not to be part of the finished object. But in the case of go stones, the shape is simple.

In other words, all you need to be able to do is to be able to make slabs of the desired mineral.

But please note that this is NOT necessarily so simple and just stating the "almost only" chemical composition deceptively unhelpful. Molluscs, for example, are able to form their shells in such a way that the resulting material has much more strength (especially tensile strength) than if you simply form a block of the chemicals from solution. Not just molluscs, of course. Our concrete may just be sand and pebbles bound together, but somehow isn't up to the strength of sandstone with embedded pebbles.

In other words, I am far less sure than you that current state of the art would allow us to produce a material closely resembling the clam shells in appearance and strength. Probably nobody will be working to tackle that problem until after they have solved how to set concrete as strong as the stone it is "almost like in the chemical sense".

Now as for the black stones, I wouldn't worry about us running out of suitable parent material any time soon.

In case you didn't know, 3D-printing is an additive manufacturing process whereby materials are added layer by layer until the desired product is reached. This is how nature 'makes' things. Trees add one ring each year, and clams add one layer to their shells each year.

Therefore, 3d-printing and the manufacture of clamshell go stones go hand-in-hand. With each printed layer, a line is formed on the surface of the stone, much like the growth lines on a clamshell. Moreover, both sides of the stone would have lines, as opposed to only one side, as is the case with Mexican clams.

One can print stones to match the lines on the most beautiful Yuki-grade Hyuga clamshell stones, each of which costs more than most people's monthly salaries!

Drew wrote:Double-convex would not print easily. If you do not add supports then you will have a high failure rate due to the small contact patch with the work-table. If you do add supports you will need to laboriously remove them from the finished workpiece.

Single-convex (think Yunzi style) would print very easily. But if you did not infill 100% you would get oddly light stones (they'd feel cheap) and if you infill 100% it would take a very long time to print.

I think you're better off just going with the real deal, unless you're posting from the ISS or some other such remote location with a 3D printer but no postal service!

Or, I could print them in block form and machine them down to desired shape and then further polish them to a mirror shine, just like how natural clamshell stones are made from shells. Basically, I'd only be printing the equivalent of a raw shell in a shape that can be easily worked into desired final shape.

I'm thinking this would work economically only for those who covet the legendary Hyuga clams in Yuki grade with desired thickness (9.5mm or up), which cost hundreds of U.S. Dollars PER STONE at a minimum.

Artificially made equivalent (using additive manufacturing process just as how nature makes the clamshells) costing a fraction might have a niche.

by78 wrote:I know that 3D-printers can handle calcium carbonate, which is the substance that make up most clamshells. It's also possible to 3D-print calcium phosphate, essentially teeth enamel.

I wonder if anyone has tried to 3D-print a clamshell Go stone? I'd imagine it'd be fairly easy to mimic the lines of a natural clam shell stone. With some surface polishing, the end product should look pretty nice.

This ought to be an interesting Kickstarter project. Anyone interested?

As someone who owns several 3d printers this does not sound simple at all. First of all calcium carbonate is not a typical print material, I haven't really seen/heard anyone having success with this material. Since it doesn't melt it could only be applied by adding small drops at a time which would mean a ton of post production making it smooth. I also don't know how one would minic the lines, how would you get the two different colors? I love 3D printing and there is a ton of uses for it but the simple shape of go stones and the need for 361 stones a set strongly suggests mass production is the way to go. I highly doubt people will pay top dollar for man made shell stones (just check the price difference between man made and natural diamonds)

by78 wrote:[..] the legendary Hyuga clams in Yuki grade with desired thickness (9.5mm or up), which cost hundreds of U.S. Dollars PER STONE at a minimum. [..]

Uhm, no.

Yes, Yuki grade stones are expensive, but not THAT expensive.

See here: Kiseido Go Equipment

And at Mr Kuroki’s store: Clamshell Go Stones BLUE LABEL, Clamshell Go Stones Premium grade, Legendary Hyuga Special Clam Go Stones

The most expensive set of stones I could find on the above pages costs 720,000 JP¥ which is US$ ~6,476 —> US$ 6476/180 = US$ ~36 per clamshell stone (if we neglect the shell stones)

Yertle wrote:

by78 wrote:I know that 3D-printers can handle calcium carbonate, which is the substance that make up most clamshells. It's also possible to 3D-print calcium phosphate, essentially teeth enamel.

I wonder if anyone has tried to 3D-print a clamshell Go stone? I'd imagine it'd be fairly easy to mimic the lines of a natural clam shell stone. With some surface polishing, the end product should look pretty nice.

This ought to be an interesting Kickstarter project. Anyone interested?

As someone who owns several 3d printers this does not sound simple at all. First of all calcium carbonate is not a typical print material, I haven't really seen/heard anyone having success with this material. Since it doesn't melt it could only be applied by adding small drops at a time which would mean a ton of post production making it smooth. I also don't know how one would minic the lines, how would you get the two different colors? I love 3D printing and there is a ton of uses for it but the simple shape of go stones and the need for 361 stones a set strongly suggests mass production is the way to go. I highly doubt people will pay top dollar for man made shell stones (just check the price difference between man made and natural diamonds)

You are correct that calcium carbonate is an atypical print material for consumer 3D printers; but there are specialized 3D printers for medical purposes that can handle the material. Maybe a few years down the road, their prices may become more mainstream.

The cost for 3D-printed clamshell stones will keep going down, but hand-crafted stones from natural clams will not.

The 'lines' on natural clamshells are not lines per se, they are actually layers. With each layer deposited by the 3D printer, a line is naturally formed. I'd imagine one can adjust the composition of the print material to make the 'lines' alternate in tone and shade to imitate natural clamshells.

And lastly, I never said I expected top dollars for 3D printed stones. I simply stated that a set of thick (10mm) Hyuga Yuki stones will set you back several hundred dollars per stone, which makes 3D-printed imitations more economical and possible more desirable due to its novelty factor alone.

Bonobo wrote:

by78 wrote:[..] the legendary Hyuga clams in Yuki grade with desired thickness (9.5mm or up), which cost hundreds of U.S. Dollars PER STONE at a minimum. [..]

Uhm, no.

Yes, Yuki grade stones are expensive, but not THAT expensive.

See here: Kiseido Go Equipment

And at Mr Kuroki’s store: Clamshell Go Stones BLUE LABEL, Clamshell Go Stones Premium grade, Legendary Hyuga Special Clam Go Stones

The most expensive set of stones I could find on the above pages costs 720,000 JP¥ which is US$ ~6,476 —> US$ 6476/180 = US$ ~36 per clamshell stone (if we neglect the shell stones)

Here, from your own source: http://shop.kurokigoishi.co.jp/en/item/739

And I've seen sets that cost $150,000 or more from Kuroki.

Of course, imitations can't beat the original. But when the Hyuga (not Mexican) clamshell stones of desired thickness are too expensive or simply unavailable to be obtained, then a 3D printed imitations with the right aesthetic qualities at a fraction of the price might be desirable to some.

And the novelty factor of 3D printed imitation clamshell stones is rather high.

by78, I’m all for your idea about 3D-printing stones and as said, I’d also put a little money in such a Kickstarter project. I just thought that the prices for clam stones that you mentioned were a bit over the top … maybe you took ¥ amounts for $$? But be it as it is, I like the idea.

But … maybe, since the material is a mineral, it would even be possible to grow it like people grow crystals? Maybe some electrochemical process? (But Calcium … dunno)

Bonobo wrote:by78, I’m all for your idea about 3D-printing stones and as said, I’d also put a little money in such a Kickstarter project. I just thought that the prices for clam stones that you mentioned were a bit over the top … maybe you took ¥ amounts for $$? But be it as it is, I like the idea.

But … maybe, since the material is a mineral, it would even be possible to grow it like people grow crystals? Maybe some electrochemical process? (But Calcium … dunno)

Yes, the prices for these Hyuga shells are definitely over the top. The set I linked costs around $38000.00! That's over $200.00 per stone. I understand that the supply is scarce, but it's really kind of ridiculous. Otherwise, this idea of mine wouldn't even be interesting at all.

by78 wrote:The set I linked costs around $38000.00! That's over $200.00 per stone.

OK, you were right and I was wrong: that one I missed, and I admit that I only counted the “available” sets.